GDPR & GP certs/HR Dept

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kitty81

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Hi, I'm looking for some advice from both sides of this, if possible.

This is not something I am in the habit of doing but last week I had to visit my GP where he prescribed an antibiotic and gave me a note for work for 3 days. ( I actually cant remember the last time I was off from work sick)

While he was doing up the note I asked him to put down the reason as to why I was unfit for work as our HR require it.

My GP told me he can longer do that due to the data changes & that HR can only request that directly from them with a request that is signed by me.

I accepted this & brought this note to HR. I told HR that while I asked, the GP cannot disclose this without the request from them.

HR are saying that I won't be paid now unless they get a new note with the illness recorded on it & are not prepared to write to GP for it.

Can anyone help me with either side of this please? Who's right, who's wrong?? I can't solve it without either of them but gp is adamant it can't be given.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
Your employers have no entitlement to that information. Covered in the [broken link removed] Annual Report of the Data Protection Commission, and strengthened with GDPR. Employers can only process sensitive data with consent and where there is a legitimate reason for doing so. For a short term and one-off absence such as this there is no legitimate reason for the company to request this information.
 
kitty81 said:
My GP told me he can longer do that due to the data changes
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Sounds ridiculous on his part.

You are surely entitled to written confirmation of your own personal information if you request it and once your request is neither unreasonable nor onerous on the third party from whom you request it?
 
No one where you work needs to be aware of the reason for your illness, they can ask, but legally cannot insist that you supply this detail to them. Of course you can tell them that the company doctor has your permission to speak to your GP to discuss if he now considers you medically fit for work. You are not preventing the company from investigating if you were ill and are now fit. The company doctor usually gives a one line reply to the company. “Kitty81 is fit for work in my opinion”. But he will not disclose your illness.

There are many reasons why people do not disclose the reason for their illness, or the reason why they are medically unfit. What if you were undergoing fertility treatment and did not want work asking you every few weeks if you were pregnant yet?

This is personal private information which your company has no need to know, your doctor is correct. All he needs to say is that you are unfit for work between x and x dates. You need to push back at HR and get them to explain why your certificate is invalid under current GDPR regulations.

The workplace relations commission would also be helpful to you.
 
Thank you all for replies & advice. I had a chat with someone from mngt today, off the record, & was told that part of the companies sickness policy is that a reason for an absence is provided.

In my limited knowledge on this & based on the comments above, I assume this may breach data protection also. Could this be something that is signed to accept when accepting the employment contract - I signed mine about 10 years ago?

I feel like a fight is on my hands with this crowd as they are very hard to deal with.
 
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Leaving GDPR out of the equation, they were never entitled to insist on the reason for being unfit for work as a condition of sick pay.

Write a letter, keep it simple; make it clear you want a written reply.

They'll think twice - and hopefully check the law - before replying.
 
It used to be part of our company’s policy too, you gave your cert to your manager, s/he gave it to HR, but then they changed to sent cert to HR, and then they changed again, saying HR really do not want to know, give it to your boss. But our written policy did not change.

So your company’s written policy has not kept up with the times and neither have the HR guys.

Just send them a note along with your cert saying, My doctor has certified me as being medically unfit for work from x to x therefore I did not attend work from x to x. Please ensure I am paid as normal for my work on date, it is unacceptable that my wages are reduced due to being on medically certified leave. Please acknowledge in writing that my wages will be paid in full.

You could if they refuse ask them for a list of illness and or medical conditions that they agree are legimate medically certified reasons for taking sick leave and a list that they find unacceptable. This might help them realise that they cannot judge your illness seeing as they have no knowledge or legimitate reason to know. If you had a communicable disease like, I don’t know, thypoid, and worked in a good handling role then they might have a legimate reason to know, but this is something you would be aware of and would reveal yourself.
 
Hi. Two points here:

One: as stated above, our laws and DP laws are clear that your employer is not entitled to know the details of your illness unless that itself becomes an issue regarding your ongoing or future work ability and that is where Occupational Health/Company doctor come in.

Two: You GP is interpreting GDPR overly strictly. As you are the data subject and you asked him to put the nature of your illness on your cert, he should have complied even if he asked you to sign something in writing about it.

You can choose to drag your HR department and managers through the hedge on this, apparently minor illness which you had no problem disclosing, or you can write to your GP and ask for confirmation of his most recent diagnosis in relation to your cert.

Is it worth antagonising your management over this?
 
Slim said:
Hi. Two points here:

One: as stated above, our laws and DP laws are clear that your employer is not entitled to know the details of your illness unless that itself becomes an issue regarding your ongoing or future work ability and that is where Occupational Health/Company doctor come in.

Two: You GP is interpreting GDPR overly strictly. As you are the data subject and you asked him to put the nature of your illness on your cert, he should have complied even if he asked you to sign something in writing about it.

You can choose to drag your HR department and managers through the hedge on this, apparently minor illness which you had no problem disclosing, or you can write to your GP and ask for confirmation of his most recent diagnosis in relation to your cert.

Is it worth antagonising your management over this?
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I would say it is worth antagonising the management. It is a extremely dangerous policy for a company. Women in the early stages of pregnancy, people with mental illness, people with STD's, People with stress would all have to reveal information with who knows who in 'HR'. They have no right to the data and in fact are opening themselves to large fines under GDPR for requesting personal data that is not warranted. If they want detailed medical records, a company doctor should contact the GP and the GP can hand over details with the employees consent but the details of the condition should never be handed over to the company management or HR.

And the GP is technically correct not to share the data with your employer. Most GP's have a data policy about who they can share medical details with and it is usually limited to other medical organisations/doctors, HSE, and some medical research. If you company wants the data, they should make an official request and it should be signed by you. And even then, you shouldn't agree to it.
 
Sunny said:
I would say it is worth antagonising the management. It is a extremely dangerous policy for a company. Women in the early stages of pregnancy, people with mental illness, people with STD's, People with stress would all have to reveal information with who knows who in 'HR'. They have no right to the data and in fact are opening themselves to large fines under GDPR for requesting personal data that is not warranted. If they want detailed medical records, a company doctor should contact the GP and the GP can hand over details with the employees consent but the details of the condition should never be handed over to the company management or HR.
All of what you say here is correct but it's not your or my career at risk in this situation.

And the GP is technically correct not to share the data with your employer. Most GP's have a data policy about who they can share medical details with and it is usually limited to other medical organisations/doctors, HSE, and some medical research. If you company wants the data, they should make an official request and it should be signed by you. And even then, you shouldn't agree to it.
The GP should follow the wishes of the data subject who asked him to disclose the nature of the illness. Also, a request from the company which is countersigned by the employee may be considered 'forced' and is not allowed under Data Protection.
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this is some nonsense, if someone is paying you while you arent available to work they should have some entitlement to know why, doesnt have to go into specifics.
 
Leo said:
Under current legislation, they have no entitlement to such information. They only need to know is whether the person is fit to work or not.
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i understand that but its nonsense. In reality anyone who goes to a doctor who wants to be signed off will get signed off. We had someone get signed off by a doctor for 2 weeks the afternoon after they were questioned about the quality of their work. There was nothing wrong apart from being annoyed at being questioned.

In this scenario it was a non irish person going to a doctor of the same nationality.

Companies that pay during illness should have a discretionary sick pay policy, if a company pays sick pay at the moment there isnt enough protection as doctors will give certs out as long as their consultation fee is covered.
 
Slim said:
All of what you say here is correct but it's not your or my career at risk in this situation.
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Agreed.

I would be inclined to discuss with your direct line management, or other trusted non-HR senior management with whom you are familiar and get their feedback. Ideally you want someone else on your side to help sponsor this topic and have a reasonable conversation with HR about reviewing and updating this process.
 
Thanks again for replies & opinions.

I will ask for HR to confirm in writing to me the reason they will not accept my current cert.

As someone pointed out in earlier posts, the fact that the leave was 3 days and is an isolated incident I don't believe that warrants undue worry from my employer about my health/well-being!

My GP simply put that I was unfit for work for 3 days & told me he would provide the info if requested through the correct channels, which I told HR. My problem is HR won't use the correct channels and are asking me to get the GP to breach his responsibilities under Data Protection. I can't, nor would I expect, him to do that.

The GP himself explained to me that he had put the nature of an illness on another patients cert for their work, as requested by the patient (a Government employer) & received a response for them to say that he should not disclose that unless specifically requested from said employer.

HR's opinion of it is, that it is part of their 'sickness policy' that the reason is provided, which I now understand is breaching personal data.

I understand that if I am not available for work, my employer should have an interest in it (& I personally have no problem with telling them what it was) however, if it had been a more personal issue they should not (& seems they don't) have access to details of it without specifically requesting it from the GP.

I'll await HR response in writing and take it from there
 
Blackrock1 said:
this is some nonsense, if someone is paying you while you arent available to work they should have some entitlement to know why, doesnt have to go into specifics.
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But they do know why. They have a certificate from a qualified medical doctor who has certified that medically they are unfit to carry out the duties of work. The reason why they are medical unfit is not required, that is private.

Ask yourself, what are you going to do with the reason why they are sick. Are you going to judge the person? (Oh I had pneumonia and I came to work every day but this person just has a cold and their doctor is giving them two weeks, they are slacking... sort of thing.) The question the medical professional would ask is where are your medical qualifications to make such a judgement, it is not your place. What if you had a temporary staff member who was undergoing fertility treatment and you decided on the basis of this written in a medical certificate that you would not renew her contract even though her work was of a satisfactory standard? It is to prevent such scenarios happening that the reason for the illness does not need to be on the certificate.

Blackrock1 said:
i understand that but its nonsense. In reality anyone who goes to a doctor who wants to be signed off will get signed off. We had someone get signed off by a doctor for 2 weeks the afternoon after they were questioned about the quality of their work. There was nothing wrong apart from being annoyed at being questioned.

In this scenario it was a non irish person going to a doctor of the same nationality.

Companies that pay during illness should have a discretionary sick pay policy, if a company pays sick pay at the moment there isnt enough protection as doctors will give certs out as long as their consultation fee is covered.
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What you have here is a performance related issue rather than an illness related issue. If you have an issue with the quality of their work then put them on a PIP. If you are concerned that they are fit for work despite being certified unfit by their doctor then send them to your company doctor. This is a cost to you but there is a process in place to do this. Companies like https://chi.ie/about-us/ are specialist in this sort of stuff (I have no connection to them). If your worker says they are too sick to drive there etc, then pay and send a taxi to collect them. Do it now, today, don't wait to let your suspicions fester.
 
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