How many landlords have quit because of rent controls?

[TheBigShort]

And exactly how are they going to finance this?

 

[AlbacoreA]

??? Im not advocating it. You forewarned that this could happen. I got the impression you thought that would be a bad thing?

Its just illogical to drive out the people most likely to want modest income.
For those wanting to maximise their return.
Then ask the 2nd group to accept a modest return, as per the first group that been driven out.

I don't get it.

 

[T McGibney]

Perhaps its time you proposed something to resolve the issues surrounding the housing crisis? Anything at all that you think might help?

1. Scrap the post-2008 anti-investor tax & planning curbs.
2. Roll back the post-2008 building standards to year 2000 levels.
3. Cut Capital Gains Tax to 20%
4. Cut VAT on house building and renovation of derelict homes to 9%.
5. Scrap rent controls.
6. Legislate a 3-year sunset clause for actions 1-4 to incentivise quick takeup.

 

[TheBigShort]

Its just illogical to drive out the people

Funny how this notion should apply to LL's but if tenants can't afford the rent then thats just tough.

 

[The Horseman]

The strategic investment fund's mandate is "We are seeking to invest in transactions where we can make a difference, where the Fund’s characteristics can enable commercial investment transactions with positive economic impact and can make it an attractive “investor of choice” for company and project sponsors and advisors.

The overarching purpose of the Fund is to invest “on a commercial basis in a manner designed to support economic activity and employment in the State”.

I don't get how investing in building property using this fund as per Labours plan is going to help employment other than the builders building the properties. The purpose of the fund is a commercial one which appears at odds with building and selling property at the lowest possible cost?

 

[Leo]

A conservative building cost estimate of €200,000 per housing unit (excluding land) is assumed, which is slightly higher than the Nevin Economic Research Institute’s estimate of €180,000 as an average for a mix of two- and three-bedroom housing.

Of course the Nevin Institute are proposing 180k would be achievable using a state owned building company!!

 

[TheBigShort]

Scrap the post-2008 anti-investor tax & planning curbs.
2. Roll back the post-2008 building standards to year 2000 levels.

Because it worked out so well the last time?

Cut Capital Gains Tax to 20%

This will make rent more affordable how?

Cut VAT on house building and renovation of derelict homes to 9%.

Good idea on the renovations of derelict homes.

Scrap rent controls.

This will make rent more affordable how?

6. - BOOM! - the bust!!

 

[T McGibney]

Because it worked out so well the last time?

I miss your point here. We never previously reversed higher building standards, at least in modern times. The 2009 tax and planning measures were specifically designed to stop people and businesses investing in residential property. In that objective, they worked handsomely but the collateral damage was enormous. Time now to roll all that back.

Good idea on the renovations of derelict homes.

Thanks.

This will make rent more affordable how?

That's easy. Greater churn of unused properties. Actual incentive to owners to sell (or in the case of derelicts, renovate) within 3 years. Can only add to supply which should cause rents to fall, or at least stabilise.

6. - BOOM! - the bust!!

First we concentrate on solving the current problem. Then we can solve the next problem. Inertia based on fearing the downstream consequences of success isn't exactly an ideal starting point.

 

[AlbacoreA]

Funny how this notion should apply to LL's but if tenants can't afford the rent then thats just tough.

My comment was you were kicking out the people best suited to the aspirations of the proposed business model.
Its entirely different to a non viable business model.

You are using a stick as if its a carrot and then wondering why no one is interested.

 

[TheBigShort]

My comment was you were kicking out the people best suited to the aspirations of the proposed business model.

Thats quite a self-centred declaration. To be clear, when you are talking about "the proposed business model" what are you talking about? The small LL business model?
If so how have you deduced that they are the "best people"? Who determines that?

In any event, it would appear that you are not entirely comfortable with the concept of the free-market? That you only embrace it to the point where you are happy with your slice of the pie.

 

[TheBigShort]

The 2009 tax and planning measures were specifically designed to stop people and businesses investing in residential property.

Admittedly I am not too au fait with the specific measures.
I attach a Revenue report specifically about the tax treatment of landlords. I do not recognize any specific measure that is proving to be a hindrance (in general terms) to the sector.
There are of course issues raised by LL's such as apparent high taxes etc.
But LL's wouldn't be unique in this.

I was told earlier on by another poster who is a LL - You cant always get what you want. Complaining of such things reminds me of the spoiled child. Thats life.

Greater churn of unused properties. Actual incentive to owners to sell (or in the case of derelicts, renovate) within 3 years. Can only add to supply which should cause rents to fall, or at least stabilise.

In theory yes, but to what extent? Simply cutting taxes does not guarantee a fall in rental prices.
Notably in the document I attach, there is already a reduction in VAT for renovations at 13%. This has yielded an estimated 1,450 properties into the rental sector - the majority, 60,000+ being registered as privately owned.
While another cut in VAT would bring more on stream it would hardly be anywhere near the numbers needed, albeit it is at least something.

 

[Sophrosyne]

@PaxmanK

This is a link to The Tax And Fiscal Treatment Of Rental Accommodation Providers published by the Tax Strategy Group in July 2017.

It contains some research into the rental market.

It may answer some of your questions as to why landlords are exiting the market – see page 15. I assume the reasons would equally apply to landlords in RPZs.

The report states:-

“The stock of properties available for rent (as measured by Daft.ie) has followed a consistent downward trajectory since the middle of 2010. In Dublin, there were just over 1,074 properties available to rent as of 1 May 2017, which is the lowest figure recorded since the series began in 2006.”

 

[AlbacoreA]

Thats quite a self-centred declaration. To be clear, when you are talking about "the proposed business model" what are you talking about? The small LL business model?
If so how have you deduced that they are the "best people"? Who determines that?

In any event, it would appear that you are not entirely comfortable with the concept of the free-market? That you only embrace it to the point where you are happy with your slice of the pie.

Your proposed plan ....

... best people as those mostly likely to be interested in your plan.....

... Who decides? The market. Thus far it's not interested in social housing or affordable housing. Unless forced into it. Often not even then...

Nothing to do with me other than all these changes are like watching father trying to fix a dent.

 

[TheBigShort]

best people as those mostly likely to be interested in your plan.....

There is an easy way to solve this.
If you were offered the opportunity of managing a property, costing you €4,000pa but with potential return of up to €24,000pa, would you be interested?

 

[AlbacoreA]

I'd assume it's a scam.

 

[TheBigShort]

I'd assume it's a scam.

After assuming it was a scam, but then discovering it was a legitimate proposition, driven by government policy, offered by LA's not wanting to manage the upkeep of all its properties, targeting working people paying already paying high proportions of their incomes in rent, in RPZ's....would you be interested in getting involved in a scheme that will cost you €4,000pa but could yield you a potential €24,000pa.

 

[Sarenco]

@PaxmanK
It may answer some of your questions as to why landlords are exiting the market – see page 15. I assume the reasons would equally apply to landlords in RPZs.

I sincerely hope this brings this thread back on topic...

I remember being genuinely surprised that none of the recommendations/options presented by the Tax Strategy Group were reflected in last year's budget. Seemed a wasted opportunity to me.

 

[TheBigShort]

I sincerely hope this brings this thread back on topic...

I remember being genuinely surprised that none of the recommendations/options presented by the Tax Strategy Group were reflected in last year's budget. Seemed a wasted opportunity to me.

Probably something to do with most of them being nothing more than a wish list of favourable tax demands.
Ask any other sector of the economy and they could put together a similar wish list.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Sarenco referred to recommendations put forward by the Tax Strategy Group; not a wish list of landlords.

 

[AlbacoreA]

After assuming it was a scam, but then discovering it was a legitimate proposition, driven by government policy, offered by LA's not wanting to manage the upkeep of all its properties, targeting working people paying already paying high proportions of their incomes in rent, in RPZ's....would you be interested in getting involved in a scheme that will cost you €4,000pa but could yield you a potential €24,000pa.

I guess you have to look at the local authority or govt past track record and your experiences with them and consider how likely to work out as promised or are you likely to get shafted.

For me their track record suggests I'll regret anything they touch.