How many landlords have quit because of rent controls?

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Gordon Gekko said:
I have a rental property and it makes 6% gross which I’m happy enough with.
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Yeh, so what? I have no issue with that?

The issue im pointing to is, firstly - the nature of the service - housing. It is essential to the functioning of civil society.
Secondly, that people (working people in particular) are priced out of ever owning their own homes and/or being priced out of renting suitable accommodation.

It is a market failure and policy failure. Some would just like to allow the market work its way and all will be ok eventually.
The housing market hasn't worked in this country for 15yrs and there is no sign it will do anytime soon.
Policy has to change, a fundamental reform of the housing market - what is it for, who is it for, how much should it cost, etc needs to be factored.
Treating housing as a commodity to be bought and sold for profit suits some people, but it is destined to cause misery, and with it, social upheaval if it is allowed to persist.
 
TheBigShort said:
The issue of non-paying tenants hasnt changed. There are still non-paying tenants today as there were, every year, for the last 150yrs and more.
Im asking why the apparent upturn in landlords leaving the sector today?
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It’s a good question, what has changed in regard to non paying tenants that is prompting landlords to sell up.

I think the short answer is the arrival of the RTB and the political hostility towards landlords.

I was a landlord before the RTB came into existence. I never considered what would happen if a tenant stopped paying their rent. If I had been asked I would probably have said that I would evict them. I have no idea what the legal position was at the time.

Then the RTB and associated legislation came along. It became clear that for all practical purposes a tenant could not be evicted for non payment of rent.

Political hostility towards landlords became a thing. To give two examples John Halligan referred to landlords as bastards. Richard Boyd Barrett advised tenants non paying rent not to leave their accommodation.

This is a great change in the environment for landlords. It is hardly surprising that many are getting out. Personally that is not an option for me. I will have to take care to protect myself in this newly hostile environment.
 
The Horseman said:
So are you saying there are houses but people can't afford the rent.
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Yeh, ive heard that there is a shortage of housing to rent and to buy and that this is driving prices higher and higher, beyond the reach of many, many working people.
Have you heard different?
 
It may be pushing property in Ranelagh out of reach, but what about living in (say) Mullingar?

The current “crisis” reeks of millenial angst and horse manure. If I see another clown with a made up job on tv giving out about the property market, I think I’ll throw the tv out the window.

“I’m a reptile psychologist and I can’t get a mortgage”. Last week I read about the accommodation troubles of a freelance PR consultant, a chap working with an LBGT social network start-up, and “comedy” writer Stephanie Pressner.

That’s not to say that we don’t have a homeless crisis which absolutely needs resourcing and deserves it. But as for the moaning about how difficult things are from millenials who want frivolous careers but the security of home ownership...give me a break. Get a real job, emigrate, or move to the extended commuter belt.
 
Gordon Gekko said:
It may be pushing property in Ranelagh out of reach, but what about living in (say)
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Well, lets take some real jobs in Ranelagh. Like the school teacher, the bus driver, the shop assistants, the waiter, the chef, the barperson, the office receptionist, the office cleaner, etc...etc...

Do you think it makes sense to have them travel from Mullingar to Ranelagh? I dont.
A lot of these jobs range from minimum wage to €12 per hour.
These jobs are essential for the operating of the services they are expected to provide. The people in these posts, on incomes that they earn, need somewhere to live. And when I say 'live' I don't mean holed up in a house that has been subdivided into 11 apartments, with substandard accommodation, being charged extortionate rents.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news...ge-and-the-rent-is-1400-a-month-37286950.html
 
Nonsense. By way of example, the 18 bus travels from areas with much cheaper accommodation (e.g. Crumlin, Palmerstown, Drimnagh) right through Ranelagh and on into Sandymount.

As for the myth of the teacher/Garda, two people on circa €40k each for quite easily afford to rent or buy in Dublin.

The problem is that the most vocal people are the millenials who think that they should be able to work at an online social network for dogs, enjoy their college years studying Ukranian impressionist art, eat Tribeca chicken wings when they like, and live on Dartmouth Square.
 
Great, so I take it by your response that you consider your initial location of Mullingar to be illogical for low/middle income earners to work in positions in Ranelagh?

You have provided much 'cheaper' locations that I agree are plausibly within travel distance by public transport to Ranelagh.
A cursory glance at 2-3 bed properties in Crumlin and we are talking about circa €2,000pm.
Not much change left for low/middle income earners, even if two people are working.
God forbid they try start a family and then have to pay childcare.

The housing crisis is not only of those who have no place of their own, its also the working people who are barely keeping their heads above water seeing their rent take a wholly disproportionate slice of their income.
People will cancel their discretionary spending before facing eviction. They will cancel things like health insurance and not go to the dentist.
They will sell car and use public transport or cycle (not necessarily a bad thing, but being forced to sell or cancel the things you want to keep, that you earned through work, breeds resentment).
Increasing rents extracts money from other areas of the economy affecting businesses.

In the end, depending on how many people are affected, depending for how long these living conditions persist, depending on whether the situation improves or worsens, will depend on whether there is social upheaval or not.
The trajectory suggests the issues surrounding housing and homelessness are getting worse. This is bad for everyone.
 
BigShort, I note that you moved the goalposts, as you frequently do. You referred to “working people”. When I suggest Mullingar, you leap to “people on the minimum wage”. I never mentioned people on minimum wage, nor had you until it suited you.
 
TheBigShort said:
@pcocp[/USER] you said earlier you were giving notice and selling up?
Now you are suggesting that you are happy to take long-term view? Which is it?
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Ok I wasn’t clear.

I am willing to remain as a landlord in the current market as things stand.
I play by the rules, always have.
My problem is the cap on rent increases, when coming from a below market rent situation.
Even when the proposed new rent would still be below market rates.
Other landlords I know are selling up if it’s not addressed in the coming months.
I remain undecided as in the long term I have plans for the property.

Regardless I was just seeking some opinions on the likelihood of the below market rent issue being addressed in the coming months.
 
Gordon Gekko said:
BigShort, I note that you moved the goalposts, as you frequently do. You referred to “working people”. When I suggest Mullingar, you leap to “people on the minimum wage”. I never mentioned people on minimum wage, nor had you until it suited you.
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You are a chancer Gekko, you waffle on about "reptile psychologists" and ask that they get a real job, live in Mullingar or emigrate!
So I listed some real jobs for you. Some of which command low wages like shop assistants in Spar or office cleaners. Even jobs with decent salaries like school teachers will struggle to met rents in Ranelagh.
So you moved goalposts and offered alternative locations of Crumlin, Palmerstown instead of Mullingar.
You did this because you know how illogical it is to expect the people who do these jobs in Ranelagh to live somewhere like Mullingar or equivalent.

So back to that point. How do you expect people with low or middle incomes to pay for rents that are beyond their reach or swallowing disproportionate levels of their incomes, to continue to live in circumstances that offers no hope of finding a place of their own or face having to move further and further away at best, or face the prospect of long-term shared accommodation or homelessness at worst?
 
Again, you’re oscillating wildly between different points.

First it was “working people”; then it was people on the minimum wage; now you’re back to people on “low or middle incomes”.

Which is it?

With regard to your last point, I expect them to upskill or move. And why should a schoolteacher have any expectation around living in Ranelagh?
 
Gordon Gekko said:
And why should a schoolteacher have any expectation around living in Ranelagh?
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They shouldn't, no-one should have any expectation about living in Ranelagh.
But equally, the people who do live in Ranelagh should not have any expectation that teachers will come work in schools, or that the local supermarket is sufficiently staffed to provide a service, or that accounting firm, solicitors, insurance brokers etc expect that someone will clean their offices for a low wage, should they?

But they do expect all those things. They want people to mind and teach their children, they want convenience, retail shopping and they want healthservices and public transport.
But if their mindset is like yours, they dont expect the people who work to provide all these services should be able to afford reasonable accommodation, at a reasonable distance from where they are expected to work, for a reasonable portion of their income.

You are wholly avoiding the issue and looking at it through the narrow prism of market price.
 
Gordon Gekko said:
And do people have some sort of entitlement to live and work in the same suburb?
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In my view of the world people don't have many entitlements.

Nevertheless a society needs people at all levels to function. And those people need somewhere to live and educational opportunities for their children.

Until recently this was not an issue in Ireland, (for the most part it still isn't outside Dublin). When I was a kid, cleaners and industrialists and everybody in between lived in close enough proximity to function as a whole. A teacher perhaps could not afford to live in the most desirable street, but they could live in the next street over.

This has changed because now there are enough people with more money than teachers to displace them, (and cleaners and shop workers) from entire districts. I agree with Gordon that if an individual wants to live in a certain area then they can make the choices that will result in earning enough to be able to afford that. Of course if they do they won't be teaching.

From societies point of view that leaves no teachers in Ranelagh, (as an example, I couldn't find Ranelagh on a map).

There are two reasons behind this, the rise of well paid jobs in sectors that did not exist a generation ago, pushing teachers etc. down the food chain. And what is charmingly called "assortive mating", people with high earning capacity marry people with high earning capacity, and of course vice versa. That leaves some families with two above average incomes and some with two, or one, below average.

I see no reason why society should intervene to fix this for the individual. If you cannot afford to live in Ranelagh, society should not displace someone else to give you that opportunity. And no matter how many new houses are built they will not all be in the most desirable areas.

However TBS has a point that no teachers in Ranelagh is a problem for society, not just for the people who want to work 22 hours a week 9 months a year and live in the most desirable part of town. (I know I should avoid a swipe at teachers, but it's hard).

I dont have any ready solution. I know that London was at this point 25 years ago, and has not really resolved it. I worked there is the 1990s and our company wanted to employ a specialist engineer. We finally found a guy in Manchester, he was delighted to work in the cutting edge area we specialised in, came to us for a month, then said sorry, but with a wife and 4 kids he had a 4 bed house and a large garden in Manchester, in London he could have afforded a 2 bed flat. We could have paid him 3 times the salary of the other engineers, but that is not the way the world works.
 
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