What is the extent of tax evasion these days?

[jjm]

I think you'll find in these cases (laundering of diesel, smuggling of cigarettes etc.) organised crime is involved. That is, the supplier is rotten to the core and completly outside the regular economy. Same with stolen goods. How scientific or real is the 1 in 8 figure? How many smuggled cigarettes are retailed by regular retailers?

I think this is essentially a different question: "What is the economic value of illegal activity?" rather than "What is the extent of tax evasion these days?"

the local filling station who takes in a few loads here and there according to you systems would not allow it to happen,We are talking about retailing the final product ,through local filling stations around ireland,

They have to have a system in place to remove it from the books if the have a system to remove the petrol stretching it would also work for other items,We are talking hear about the end seller not having to pay any tax what so ever,
What you said above is not really standing up to this example of tax evasion, you cant sell stretched petrol in a car boot sale,

 

[newtothis]

the local filling station who takes in a few loads here and there according to you systems would not allow it to happen,,

Er, where did I say this? What I actually said was "I'm not saying it doesn't happen - it clearly does, as published Revenue lists prove - but I would not underestimate the difficulty in doing as you suggest and getting away with it for any length"

How many retailers are involved in selling laundered diesel? I don't know, and neither do you.

 

[Leo]

The fast food sector is the focus of significant Revenue audit activity and traders in that sector pop up all the time on the Revenue defaulters and prosecutions lists. Revenue monitor operators extremely closely, and often physically. Anyone without robust and fully-tallied sales records including till rolls, audit trails and verifiable reconciliations to lodgments, will be nailed to the wall.

I know of one take-away that was hit a couple of years back. Revenue had been watching during a busy period, then entered the premises and obtained the till rolls which only recorded a fraction of the sales observed.

 

[elcato]

As for taxi drivers as mentioned by another poster, I got a taxi recently it cost me €9 and the journey took just over half an hour. I don't know how they make €15k profit a year don't mind €60k. AND everything they do is there to be seen on the meter.

I was taking in your argument till you posted this. Where were you, in Estonia ? 30 minutes waiting time @ 50 cent a minute is 15 euro.

 

[MrEarl]

I know of one take-away that was hit a couple of years back. Revenue had been watching during a busy period, then entered the premises and obtained the till rolls which only recorded a fraction of the sales observed.

Interesting that you mention that, because I also heard about a local Chinese take away a few yeas back where something similar happened. It would be some coincidence if it was the same place !

I would like to think that the Revenue have large teams of inspectors out checking things like this all of the time and that they are having some success, but I struggle to believe it in truth and suspect it's just a very small group of inspectors with occasional successes.

 

[Leo]

Interesting that you mention that, because I also heard about a local Chinese take away a few yeas back where something similar happened. It would be some coincidence if it was the same place !

Nope, more of the traditional Italian-run take-away.

...and suspect it's just a very small group of inspectors with occasional successes.

I'd agree.

 

[cremeegg]

As for taxi drivers as mentioned by another poster, I got a taxi recently it cost me €9 and the journey took just over half an hour. I don't know how they make €15k profit a year don't mind €60k. AND everything they do is there to be seen on the meter.

I was taking in your argument till you posted this. Where were you, in Estonia ? 30 minutes waiting time @ 50 cent a minute is 15 euro.

I was in Dublin. And although I do not have the receipt the taxi regulator website estimates the travel time for that journey as between 21 and 39 minutes and the fare as between €8.80 and €17.80.

The waiting time rate on tarrif A, the first 41 minutes, is 38.87 cent per minute. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/127/made/en/print

In the real world most taxi drivers don't make enough to be involved in avoiding tax.

 

[MrEarl]

In the real world most taxi drivers don't make enough to be involved in avoiding tax.

Are you referring to tax avoidance, or tax evasion .. two different things, with one category (tax avoidance) dominated by high earners and the very wealthy ?

FYI - I got into a taxi and traveled about 6-7 miles through Dublin city centre around 5.30pm the other day (I was on my own, with no luggage and with no additional stops along the way), the journey took about 25-30 minutes and the fare was over €17.

In my experience, the majority of taxi drivers are great and flicking the old buttons on their meters a few times when I first get into their cars, without me having any idea what they are doing, other than noticing the fare on the display increasing. Are we being tapped up for additional (invisible) passengers, or baggage that doesn't exist - I just don't know.

In my experience it's not uncommon for a taxi driver to fail to give a receipt and then when I've asked for one, to be told by the taxi driver that he has a faulty printer, or it's out of paper etc. When pressed, most drivers are prepared to give a written receipt of some form, but not always. Personally, I think this happens far too often to be just a coincidence with guys running out of paper all of the time, or their receipt machines breaking regularly.

Last but not least, I've heard mention on numerous occasions of it being possible to "fiddle" with the meters. While I am not saying this is a regular occurrence, I also think there's no smoke without fire.

As much as possible, I'm using a phone app linked to my credit card to pay for all taxi journeys these days and reckon that way, the income is harder to hide if a taxi driver is considering not including it in his / her accounts. It's more convenient for me, and helps keep everyone honest

 

[T McGibney]

Interesting that you mention that, because I also heard about a local Chinese take away a few yeas back where something similar happened. It would be some coincidence if it was the same place !

I would like to think that the Revenue have large teams of inspectors out checking things like this all of the time and that they are having some success, but I struggle to believe it in truth and suspect it's just a very small group of inspectors with occasional successes.

It's common in that sector, but increasingly difficult to get away with it, as Revenue have been attacking it for years and now seem on top of it. Average collection from this sort of selectively targeted audit is approx. €70k.

 

[MrEarl]

It's common in that sector, but increasingly difficult to get away with it, as Revenue have been attacking it for years and now seem on top of it. Average collection from this sort of selectively targeted audit is approx. €70k.

What makes you say that Revenue seem to be on top of it ?

I would think if the average collection is €70k then it's good to see, but in the next breath it also evidences the fact that there's still abuse and with that sort of average number, justifies even more focus on the sector.

Any idea what sort of percentage of audits by Revenue result in Revenue collecting additional tax from the fast food sector perhaps ?

I adopt a similar approach to the way I deal with taxi drivers, wherever possible I order for delivery of fast food online or from an app and pay by paypal or card

.

 

[T McGibney]

What makes you say that Revenue seem to be on top of it ?

The frequency, cumulative number, and severity of the published default settlements in this sector.

I would think if the average collection is €70k then it's good to see, but in the next breath it also evidences the fact that there's still abuse and with that sort of average number, justifies even more focus on the sector.

I don't get your logic here. Of course its evident that there is still abuse in this sector as others have authoritatively pointed out above, and that as @torblednam in particular pointed out the sector is inherently prone to evasion attempts.

Any idea what sort of percentage of audits by Revenue result in Revenue collecting additional tax from the fast food sector perhaps ?

The Revenue annual reports will probably yield this information if you're sufficiently minded to look them up.

 

[MrEarl]

Hello,

In one sentence you say that you think that Revenue are on top of this issue, but later you refer to the fact that there is clearly abuse in the sector, so how can you feel that Revenue are on top of it ?

Perhaps your view of Revenue being on top of something is different to my own ?

I am delighted to see Revenue successful in their audits of this sector, but given the average amount that you referenced above, I think there's a lot more work to be done to clean up the level of abuse. If Revenue were "on top of it", then the average amount would be far less than €70k, imho.

 

[T McGibney]

Hello,

Hello.

(This getting a tad boring, by the way)

In one sentence you say that you think that Revenue are on top of this issue, but later you refer to the fact that there is clearly abuse in the sector, so how can you feel that Revenue are on top of it ?

The fact that they keep finding and severely punishing offenders is in my book an indication that they are on top of it, I would have thought?
Ditto for the Gardai: If they keep apprehending bank robbers, you can hardly blame them if more and more people, for whatever reason, nevertheless attempt bank robberies.

Perhaps your view of Revenue being on top of something is different to my own ?

I can't read your mind so I couldn't possibly comment.

I am delighted to see Revenue successful in their audits of this sector, but given the average amount that you referenced above, I think there's a lot more work to be done to clean up the level of abuse.

Not quite seeing your logic there, tbh.

If Revenue were "on top of it", then the average amount would be far less than €70k, imho.

Ditto.

 

[galway_blow_in]

That has always been my experience to, even recently I needed plumbing work done, and was quoted €450 plus VAT, for cash it would be just €400 and no VAT.

i always insist on at least a 20% discount if someone wants cash and i usually get it , would need to , galway tradesmen are the greediest in the country by a mile , materials cost more than in the east too

 

[jjm]

i always insist on at least a 20% discount if someone wants cash and i usually get it , would need to , galway tradesmen are the greediest in the country by a mile , materials cost more than in the east too

Eastern European tradesmen have them well undercut and good tradesmen also,

 

[newtothis]

I have to say this thread really is all sound and fury signifying nothing: none of you has any hard evidence for any of the claims you're making, so you're just going round in circles.

To answer the original question "What is the extent of tax evasion these days?", who knows? It's unanswerable in any case (what's "these days"?).

Even if it was rephrased as "Is tax evasion more prevalent than 20, 30 or 40 years ago?" there’s no way to know definitively.

Having said that, if you accept that one is more likely to be caught than 20, 30 or 40 years ago, the answer is probably no.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

i always insist on at least a 20% discount if someone wants cash and i usually get it , would need to , galway tradesmen are the greediest in the country by a mile , materials cost more than in the east too

If that was me, I'd be a little more forceful.

€1,000 plus 13.5% VAT is (obviously) €1,135. The service provider probably ends up with €480 after tax (assuming he's a higher rate tax/USC payer). So "splitting the benefit" would pitch it at around the €800 level.

 

[galway_blow_in]

Eastern European tradesmen have them well undercut and good tradesmen also,

the standard of tradesmen in the west is below that of the east in my experience , competition is very poor compared to more densely populated parts of the country , im originally from drogheda and any town close to northern ireland is good value , the north keeps pressure on these areas

 

[MrEarl]

....

(This getting a tad boring, by the way)

Perhaps the only thing we agree on in this particular conversation so lets move on.

 

[newtothis]

Seems like there's plenty of evasion going on in one particular sector: https://www.businesspost.ie/news/doctoring-tax-system-393601