but sure as they grow older they will have plenty of time to decide wheather its for them or not!...thats what most of us do in the end.
2nd class & Communion - still a given?
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I share Truthseeker's concern on that issue. Logical critical thinking is an essential skill for anyone working in science or engineering. Anything that says "you must believe this orthodoxy because your parents believe it and because it's the accepted norm and you are forbidden from questioning the orthodoxy” is bad. The ability to question norms and orthodoxies is that has brought us from the dark ages to this age of science and reason. It is the fundamental skill that drives science and progress. Religion curtails the development of critical thinking, it stunts the growth of our ability to think and therefore question with precision. That’s why I don’t like it.
truthseeker
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Id like to nominate this as post of the day.
Ah here, even Scientists believed in Santa at some stage in their life. Are we now saying that we shouldn't tell our children about God's, Santa, witches, wizards, fairytales etc etc because it might damage their ability to develop the skills necessary to become the engineers and scientists of tomorrow.
Post of the day ? Well, if that's what you believe to be true, who am I to tell you your belief is misplaced
?Science <> faith.
truthseeker
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The difference is, we tell kids that there isnt really a Santa when they are old enough (but to pretend for the young un's cos its fun).
The_Banker
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Excellent post
+1
I think kids figure these things out for themselves. I was baptised, had a communion and confirmation. Didn't do me any harm. Simply decided when I was old enough that I didn't want anything to do with organised religion.
If people don't want their children to learn religion, then fair enough but lets not suggest that kids that do believe and partake are somehow inferior in their ability to critically analyse what they hear.
truthseeker
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Some do, but as long as we all agree to keep calm and carry on, thats what allows the church to claim numbers beyond its genuine membership and this allows it to have the influence it has.
I would agree that we go along with it if I didnt think it did any harm but I think the RCC has done massive amounts of harm in this country (and in others).
I agree with Sunny and blueband. Even though I am no longer religious, I don’t regret having been brought up that way. In a way, religion may be the first time a child starts to question something – and so long as they are not slapped down with ‘because it just is’, it can help the learning experience. I also think a religious upbringing is useful in forming moral behaviour – starting life with an unquestioning message that god expects you to be well-behaved, respectful and kind to your fellow man can be more compelling than your boring old parents (who you throw tantrums at/disobey regularly anyway) telling you that they expect the same thing. Sure, you’ll eventually start questioning and making up your own mind about what you believe but the moral framework should last longer.
That said, the religious foundation doesn't have to be Catholic - I think some of the other Christian religions have a less rigid approach to their people – with the church guiding and being there to help people decide and interpret for themselves rather than imposing rules on an all-or-nothing basis. It is a bit sad that people see the choice as Catholic (which many have major issues with now) or nothing - even when religion has been very important to them. My mother is still hanging in with the Catholic church but my father is very disillusioned and wants little to do with it anymore - despite being religious all his life, believing the core beliefs and still wanting something like that in his life. If some of the protestant religions were run more like businesses, they could probably increase their memberships dramatically at the moment!
It would be nice if religion in school could be broadly christian in nature (continuing what they will have picked up at home - baptism of siblings, communion, mass/church, Christmas, Easter etc.) to give children the foundation to continue with it or question and leave it. Faith-specific instruction (communion/confirmation preparation) could be done out of school hours.
That said, the religious foundation doesn't have to be Catholic - I think some of the other Christian religions have a less rigid approach to their people – with the church guiding and being there to help people decide and interpret for themselves rather than imposing rules on an all-or-nothing basis. It is a bit sad that people see the choice as Catholic (which many have major issues with now) or nothing - even when religion has been very important to them. My mother is still hanging in with the Catholic church but my father is very disillusioned and wants little to do with it anymore - despite being religious all his life, believing the core beliefs and still wanting something like that in his life. If some of the protestant religions were run more like businesses, they could probably increase their memberships dramatically at the moment!
It would be nice if religion in school could be broadly christian in nature (continuing what they will have picked up at home - baptism of siblings, communion, mass/church, Christmas, Easter etc.) to give children the foundation to continue with it or question and leave it. Faith-specific instruction (communion/confirmation preparation) could be done out of school hours.
I wonder though that if non practicing or even unbelieving parents continue to sign their kids up to the Roman Catholic church, despite their treatment of members in the past, that the same church will be less likely or very slow to change for the better? It is obviously a flawed religious organisation with many outdated beliefs and practices (for example - women priests, the treatment of gay people, respecting state laws) and I would consider a drop-off in numbers possiblly the only way shake things up and get some real improvements.
I agree with you but the religion I learned as a child and the foundation that my parents gave me went alongside an exposure to the wonders of the world and universe around us. When my father talked to me about astronomy and the universe he didn't contextualise it in Christian dogma. When the contradictions between Christian teaching and science became apparent it was religious teaching that was pushed aside.
The problem is that's not what religions teach. The current Pope has even rolled back on the modest advances in accepting evolution that his predecessor made.
Examining the facts and drawing a conclusion based only on the facts, without any preconceptions and bias, makes things like racism, sexism, snobbery and general bigotry almost impossible because they are not based on full evidential deduction but on ignorance and cultural preconception. In other words there is no logical basis for holding such beliefs.
Ignorance breeds fear and fear breeds hostility. Dogmatic beliefs and orthodoxies get in the way of understanding and acceptance. Those beliefs and orthodoxies don’t just have to be religious; socialism, communism, right-wing fundamentalism, etc, they all pre-suppose that groups of people will think and behave in a particular way. Just as modern Catholic priests are usually open minded and enlightened people most socialists don’t think that business owners are hell-bent on exploiting the working masses but there is a tinge of the old dogma in the narrative of the left just as there is a tinge of the anti-scientific to the narrative of the RC Church.
The place that I see this at its worst is in how development charities operate in the poorest countries in the world. Because the root causes and long term solutions to the problems the poorest countries face are so complex and multifaceted NGO’s nearly always resort to a default position based on the political and economic views of the people who run them. Therefore they waste most of the money they get taregting things that are not root causes. A book like “The Bottom Billion” exposes exactly what happens in the absence of critical thinking and it’s almost a metaphor for what’s wrong with thinking that starts with preconceptions.
It’s easier to see flawed thinking in the developed world because facts are more readily available and people are more educated in those facts. A good example of this is how AIDS patients were treated in the West in the 1980’s in comparison to how they are treated here now. Compare that to how they are treated in most of Africa. Ignorance breeds fear and fear breeds hostility.
This all started by somebody being somewhat offended by being asked about a child's First Communion in school's 2nd Class. Suddenly, it has exploded into a huge issue with doctrines, beliefs, teachings, and God knows what else being discussed.
Loosen up, take it easy, and keep to the subject.
Loosen up, take it easy, and keep to the subject.
Is confession part of the 1st communion ceremony? I think it is. I have to say that I always thought confession was always a little disturbing for little kids and I doubt its an healthy emotional experience even if the parents are just getting the kids to take part in the communion event so as not to miss out. Do they still have kids going into dark cubicles to admit all their 'sins' to the old cross priest who subsequently judges them and decides their penance? Oh dear I will have nightmares tonight!
I always asked questions regarding religion, there were typically more questions than answers, just as there is in the world of science. Your view on religion stunting the ability to think and question with precision is questionable to say the least. If we remove religion from the debate entirely, we can see that today people most often just accept the findings of new scientific breakthroughs, and if someone questions them, they are often labeled as conspiracy theorists etc.