Zoned Heating Vs Back Boiler

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Duffman

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I am currently building a 2200 sq ft bungalow. Trying to decide whether to put in a zoned heating system - splitting the living areas and the sleeping areas which are at different ends of the house. Our plumber told us that we cannot put in that system as well as a solid fuel stove with a back boiler.
I can understand the convenience of a zoned system but I don't want to depend on oil heating only. Any suggestions??
 
I would get another plumber if I was you. We have an oil boiler and a solid fuel range and we have control over the upstairs and downstairs heating - one or both "zones" can be switched on or off .
If the range is on by itself though - only one zone (downstairs) will heat up - this is because the range isn't powerful enough to heat all the rads - upstairs and down - so that is how my plumber set it up. I'm no expert - but I reckon your plumber could be wrong.
 
Irish,

I have a 2100 sq ft hse, with a zoned oil heating sysstem (living area and bedroom area). I can do the following off of the oil heating

1) Water heating alone
2) Water plus Living are
3) Water plus bedroom area
4) Water plus bedroom plus living area


Last year I put in a backboiler as well as the oil. The problem I think your plumber is pointing to is getting a backboiler strong enough to run all your rads, whcih is the same problem I have. We went for a solid fuel stove instead of a backboiler, as we could get more power out of it. Still however, it is not enough to hear all zones of the house on its own, so we wither have it heating one zone only (bedroom or living area), or use the oil burner to boost it also.

My opinion is that it was well worth doing, our oil bills have fallen dramatically since. I would look at a stove, rather than a standard backboiler though, as you will get more out of it heatwise.

Regards,
Wexfordman
 
A warning if you are putting in a back boiler. Make sure that the circuit bypasses the oil boiler. It took me a few years to realise that the plumber who installed ours had the hot water from the back boiler circulating out to the boiler house when the oil was off.
 
I have seen this sort of installation 10to1 describes a few times here in Eire, the plumbers must be realy thick.
Any stove or boiler must state it's max.output. So it's simple adding up the radiator outputs and then this sum should be compared with the output of the boiler. The sum would give usually a higher value then actually is needed. Since a radiator with 2 kWh output might be to big for the room it wouldn't be running on 2 kWh all the time. It depends on the insulation value of the house as well.
When buying a boiler go for a modulating condensing boiler, if possible for a combi model that would allow to produce pressurised domestric hot water as well. See http://www.sedbuk.com/ what the market has to offer, what might suit your needs.
"Zoned heating " is a very energy wasting way of heating a dwelling, the cheaper and more efficient method is to use "Temperature controlled Radiator Valves" at each radiator. Zoned heating will allways heat several rooms at once even when there is only demand to heat one room. Each radiator should be controlled individually.
I would say you should search for a better plumber, better a heating engineer. You would live most likely the next ten years with what you buy today, that is about the lifetime of a boiler. And most people wait until the old heating breaks down before thinking of getting a new system. And dont forget to insulate ALL pipes, even the cold water pipes.
 
Wexfordman said:
Irish,

I have a 2100 sq ft hse, with a zoned oil heating sysstem (living area and bedroom area). I can do the following off of the oil heating

1) Water heating alone
2) Water plus Living are
3) Water plus bedroom area
4) Water plus bedroom plus living area


Last year I put in a backboiler as well as the oil. The problem I think your plumber is pointing to is getting a backboiler strong enough to run all your rads, whcih is the same problem I have. We went for a solid fuel stove instead of a backboiler, as we could get more power out of it. Still however, it is not enough to hear all zones of the house on its own, so we wither have it heating one zone only (bedroom or living area), or use the oil burner to boost it also.

My opinion is that it was well worth doing, our oil bills have fallen dramatically since. I would look at a stove, rather than a standard backboiler though, as you will get more out of it heatwise.

Regards,
Wexfordman
Click to expand...

Is there major hassle involved in linking the stove in to an existing central heating system ? I like the idea of a stove but not the thought of having to dig up floors and /or have pipes running up the walls in to a hot press.
 
hienbloed, from one of the THICK plumbers, a zoned heating system utilises BOTH motor valves for each zone, that is supplemented by trvs at each rad excluding the room with the room stat, as for you comment to being a stupid way to control a houses heat, your trvs do NOT signal to the appliance nor provide and means of boiler interlock, hence your boiler will short cycle (increasing fuel usage) when the house has reached temperature.

You suggested using a modulating boiler, if you had correctly read the OP, they were taking about OIL! no domestic oil burner on the market modulate, only gas boilers do

As for using a combi for DHW, great as long as you don't have more than one bathroom!
 
Probably wasting our time here as the previous posts are all from 2006 but how and ever!

+1 DGOBS

@Heinbloed: It is against building regs not to zone a house. It is very possible to zone a house and have a solid fuel boiler and it can be installed that each system is independent of each other in that they do not heat each other.

TRV's are in no way better than zoning. In my opinion I would not fit them. They can be very troublesome, are normally fitted incorrectly, i.e. in the vertical position unless stated my the manufacturer. They should generally be in the horizontal position as the heat from the pipe can switch them off. TRV's cannot switch off the boiler so if all rooms reach temperature, the boiler is running at full power and will short cycle. I would only fit TRV's in certain rooms when no other option is available.

Timeclock should power the room stats, rooms stats power the motorized valve which in turn opens circuit and then switches on boiler and circulating pump.

"Zoned Heating" saves money!

@Zoner: A plumbed manifold should always still have a motorized zone valve installed or better still a motorized actuator to each pipe run wired to a control centre to call in the boiler/pump. If you are installing this method, I would also install a self modulating circulating pump such as a Grundfos Alpha2 pump as previously mentioned in some of other posts.
 
demoivre said:
Is there major hassle involved in linking the stove in to an existing central heating system ? I like the idea of a stove but not the thought of having to dig up floors and /or have pipes running up the walls in to a hot press.
Click to expand...
There is no problem incorporating a solid fuel heating appliance into an existing oill fired heating system once it is installed properly with a unrestricted gravity circuit between the stove/boiler and the hot water storage cylinder. This circuit should be of 25mm diameter metal pipework. (no plastic/polyethylene pipe to be used)
You should be looking at the hot press/airing cupboard for the location for most of the interconnection pipework. Get a reputable time served plumbing contractor to look at the work. They are out there!!
 
TRV's are mandatory if applying for seai grant, I feel the pain Shane too
Opps, didn't register 2006!
 
DGOBS said:
TRV's are mandatory if applying for seai grant, I feel the pain Shane too
Opps, didn't register 2006!
Click to expand...

Only mandatory if there is only one space heating zone and one DHW zone and then only 3 are required. You don't require them say in a two storey where you can create two separate space heating zones and one DHW.
 
Another point is that I would certainly not like to use TRV's on a solid fuel systems. You could quite easily have a fire lit for the parish, close all TRV's, and system could potentially overheat!
 
Shane007 said:
Another point is that I would certainly not like to use TRV's on a solid fuel systems. You could quite easily have a fire lit for the parish, close all TRV's, and system could potentially overheat!
Click to expand...

Who said anything about fitting trv's on solid fuel systems?. Are trv's meant to be closed:confused:I thought the original post was to do with connecting a solid fuel stove to an existing heating system.
If the system is designed and installed properly there will be no problem with overheating.:(
 
Hi Villa1,
Duffman originally asked about zoning with back boiler. Heinbloed came in and recommended instead of zoning, to install TRV's. I would not recommend TRV's with solid fuel. I am not sure about what you mean "Are TRV's meant to be closed?". They should be open until the temperature surrounding them reaches the set temperature on the valve, then they will close.
For me, the question is when the DHW cylinder is heated to capacity, then all the TRV's close, the homeowner still has a fire lit for the parish, where will the heat disapate to? At least with no TRV's the room should be able to take more heat.
 
DGOBS said:
You heard the latest, they seemingly now want 10sq earth to the pump!
Click to expand...

You do not have to install 10sq earth to the pump. Assuming that normal bonding within the property is to 10sq standard, the plumbing pipework is bonded to 10sq and at some point back to the fuseboard (earth rod), then this is sufficient. If the property is say over 10 years old, it may only have 6sq bonding. This will have to be upgraded to 10sq, even to the fuseboard and to the earth rod if required.

What they are talking about, regarding the pump is: if you are working on the pump, i.e. have the pump removed, then there could be a potential risk of electrocution as this could be a break in the earth circuit. To overcome this, SEAI required two earth clamps, one fitted to the pipework either side of the pump and connected together with 10sq earth cable. They also require the oil pipe to be bonded but this is not a Category One failure.

They also require the heating circuit pipework to and from the DHW cylinder insulated to a minimum of 1m from the cylinder!

Apologies if this is beginning to hijack the thread :-(
 
Shane007 said:
Hi Villa1,
Duffman originally asked about zoning with back boiler. Heinbloed came in and recommended instead of zoning, to install TRV's. I would not recommend TRV's with solid fuel. I am not sure about what you mean "Are TRV's meant to be closed?". They should be open until the temperature surrounding them reaches the set temperature on the valve, then they will close.
For me, the question is when the DHW cylinder is heated to capacity, then all the TRV's close, the homeowner still has a fire lit for the parish, where will the heat disapate to? At least with no TRV's the room should be able to take more heat.
Click to expand...

I give up. I know nothing, Please read what I said!!
 
LOL, now I am lost!!

villa 1 said:
Who said anything about fitting trv's on solid fuel systems?.
Click to expand...

Heinbloed did.

villa 1 said:
Are trv's meant to be closed:confused:
Click to expand...

I said they are supposed to be open until the air temperature surrounding the valve reaches the set temperature on the dial on the valve, then they will be closed.

villa 1 said:
I thought the original post was to do with connecting a solid fuel stove to an existing heating system.
Click to expand...

No, it was a new build wanting to encorporate solid fuel into a zoned heating system. Then Heinbloed came in and suggested using TRV's instead of zoning.

villa 1 said:
If the system is designed and installed properly there will be no problem with overheating.:(
Click to expand...

Correct, however if there are too many TRV's fitted and they all switch off, i.e. no more heat is being disapated through the radiators, this could lead to a potential overheat issue.

We are probably flogging a dead horse here as the OP was in 2006, and Duffman is by now sitting lovely and toasty in his now 5 year old and hopefully zoned house.
 
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