Over the last year everyone will have noticed the influx of east european immigrants into ireland over the last year. At least 50% of these are highly educated with third level qualifications in engineering, science and IT. Yet these immigrants by and large are working in low skilled jobs in supermarkets, petrol stations etc. Why is this the case? We are always hearing from politicians about the need for a highly skilled workforce and for more science and engineering graduates. Yet many of these immigrants have these skills but the country doesn't seem to have jobs for them. My conclusion is that there is simply not the huge demand for these skills in the irish economy. There also maybe a bias favouring irish people for higher skilled jobs but overall I think the former is the truer picture.
Why are highly educated immigrants from Eastern Europe working in low skill jobs?
- Thread starter joe sod
- Start date
Re: highly educated immigrants
yes the numbers of employed have greatly reduced .....and I think joe sod
you are spot on there ......
this is because
1. companies want a large pool of graduates so they re -locate
2. Wage costs
3. And this is not my believe but .... they are considered better educated ....
5 years for an eng degree
The main reason that they employ irish grad now is because of our english skill.
take IBM for example ...........
joe sod said:
yes the numbers of employed have greatly reduced .....and I think joe sod
you are spot on there ......
this is because
1. companies want a large pool of graduates so they re -locate
2. Wage costs
3. And this is not my believe but .... they are considered better educated ....
5 years for an eng degree
The main reason that they employ irish grad now is because of our english skill.
take IBM for example ...........
Re: highly educated immigrants
unfortunately eng and since degree in Ireland don't have a strong mathematical content
and they talk about relaxing the honors maths requirement for eng degrees ...
its seems that the quality of students is dropping -- not my words .....
I used to teach science and still help a bit if a mother asks nicely and I regret to say that students that seem to interests in eng as a career seem to be
weaker at science than other students .
A good share of them say that they are interest in science because it easier to get in ....
maybe it the students I help?
Capaill said:
unfortunately eng and since degree in Ireland don't have a strong mathematical content
and they talk about relaxing the honors maths requirement for eng degrees ...
its seems that the quality of students is dropping -- not my words .....
I used to teach science and still help a bit if a mother asks nicely and I regret to say that students that seem to interests in eng as a career seem to be
weaker at science than other students .
A good share of them say that they are interest in science because it easier to get in ....
maybe it the students I help?
Re: highly educated immigrants
I work for a large engineering firm and currently there are engineers here from the following countries: Ireland, USA, UK, Poland, Syria and Cork. In addition, in the past few years I have worked with engineers from the following countries (in Ireland): France, Germany, Italy, Denmark.
There are a number of International Agreements of which Ireland is a signatory member. These agreements enable suitably qualified Engineers to work in all of the signatory countries. Two of these agreements may be referenced under The Washington Accord or FEANI.
One of the principal reasons for Engineers and Scientists from new accession countries not taking up tasks for which they are qualified is (a) they're not applying for the jobs and (b) they don't command a sufficient mastery of the English language. In addition, while some countries (Poland and Estonia) are signed up to FEANI, others aren't, so it would be difficult to employ an technical professional from some places. So don't forget all the long term members of the EU, they are supplying many qualified professionals to the Irish labour market.
Both Engineering and Science degrees traditionally and currently have a strong mathematical content. However, there has been a decline in the level of mathematics which students can handle on entering college, which appears to be a result of maintaining a grade curve and marking systems at Leaving Certificate Level. There is an issue at second level in maintaining the interest of students in math and science subjects in an environment of almost full employment.
For the record, I am an Engineer.
Imperator
I work for a large engineering firm and currently there are engineers here from the following countries: Ireland, USA, UK, Poland, Syria and Cork. In addition, in the past few years I have worked with engineers from the following countries (in Ireland): France, Germany, Italy, Denmark.
There are a number of International Agreements of which Ireland is a signatory member. These agreements enable suitably qualified Engineers to work in all of the signatory countries. Two of these agreements may be referenced under The Washington Accord or FEANI.
One of the principal reasons for Engineers and Scientists from new accession countries not taking up tasks for which they are qualified is (a) they're not applying for the jobs and (b) they don't command a sufficient mastery of the English language. In addition, while some countries (Poland and Estonia) are signed up to FEANI, others aren't, so it would be difficult to employ an technical professional from some places. So don't forget all the long term members of the EU, they are supplying many qualified professionals to the Irish labour market.
Both Engineering and Science degrees traditionally and currently have a strong mathematical content. However, there has been a decline in the level of mathematics which students can handle on entering college, which appears to be a result of maintaining a grade curve and marking systems at Leaving Certificate Level. There is an issue at second level in maintaining the interest of students in math and science subjects in an environment of almost full employment.
For the record, I am an Engineer.
Imperator
Re: highly educated immigrants
"This is an interesting topic for discussion but the continuing reliance on unverifiable anecdotal evidence in preference to verifiable, objective statistics is not of much use in arriving at any reasonable conclusions."
In an article I read in the independent recently it estimates that at least 50% of these immigrants have university qualifications and are more highly qualified than the indiginous irish population where 30% have university qualifications. I know from anecdotal evidence that a substantial proportion of these have technical degrees.
"unfortunately eng and since degree in Ireland don't have a strong mathematical content
and they talk about relaxing the honors maths requirement for eng degrees ...
its seems that the quality of students is dropping -- not my words ....."
Well it appears that the quality of irish graduates is dropping. This raises more questions about why more of these eastern european graduates are not employed. Because they are from the former eastern block the technical content of their qualifications would be of very high standard.
"I remember reading somewhere that a lot of the degrees etc. that immigrants have are awarded by bodies not recognised here in Ireland."
If this is the case then why not?
"This is an interesting topic for discussion but the continuing reliance on unverifiable anecdotal evidence in preference to verifiable, objective statistics is not of much use in arriving at any reasonable conclusions."
In an article I read in the independent recently it estimates that at least 50% of these immigrants have university qualifications and are more highly qualified than the indiginous irish population where 30% have university qualifications. I know from anecdotal evidence that a substantial proportion of these have technical degrees.
"unfortunately eng and since degree in Ireland don't have a strong mathematical content
and they talk about relaxing the honors maths requirement for eng degrees ...
its seems that the quality of students is dropping -- not my words ....."
Well it appears that the quality of irish graduates is dropping. This raises more questions about why more of these eastern european graduates are not employed. Because they are from the former eastern block the technical content of their qualifications would be of very high standard.
"I remember reading somewhere that a lot of the degrees etc. that immigrants have are awarded by bodies not recognised here in Ireland."
If this is the case then why not?
Re: highly educated immigrants
Joe Sod
Just because somebody was educated in an institution from the former Eastern Bloc doesn't imply a superior technical education. In addition, not just the education but the work practices of a person are important. I lived and worked in a former Soviet Republic, and I can say the level of technical expertise was certainly adequate. However, there was no initiative or questioning of technical or commercial issues - itself a holdover from working under a dictatorship.
It is up to the technical community in any country to make sure that their personnel get educated and trained to work abroad, in Ireland the Institution of Engineers made sure a long time ago to sign up to international agreements.
Imperator
Joe Sod
Just because somebody was educated in an institution from the former Eastern Bloc doesn't imply a superior technical education. In addition, not just the education but the work practices of a person are important. I lived and worked in a former Soviet Republic, and I can say the level of technical expertise was certainly adequate. However, there was no initiative or questioning of technical or commercial issues - itself a holdover from working under a dictatorship.
It is up to the technical community in any country to make sure that their personnel get educated and trained to work abroad, in Ireland the Institution of Engineers made sure a long time ago to sign up to international agreements.
Imperator
A close friend of my family moved to Ireland over a year ago with an internationally accredited degree - I've seen the transcript and certificates and believe them to be Kosher.
Here lies the problem - their degree is stated on paper to be that of an accounts degree, not dissimilar to our BESS (Business Economics & Social Studies), however having viewed the information, I would say that is it a degree in Materials Management.
Anytime the person concerned has gone for an interview for any job even remotely related to their qualifications the language has been an issue without a doubt, however the lack of accreditation to operate in Ireland for example CIMA/ACCA/IATI is a definite stumbling block. Their qualification states one thing, but they don't have the learning or experience to take on a job in that field of work.
Here lies the problem - their degree is stated on paper to be that of an accounts degree, not dissimilar to our BESS (Business Economics & Social Studies), however having viewed the information, I would say that is it a degree in Materials Management.
Anytime the person concerned has gone for an interview for any job even remotely related to their qualifications the language has been an issue without a doubt, however the lack of accreditation to operate in Ireland for example CIMA/ACCA/IATI is a definite stumbling block. Their qualification states one thing, but they don't have the learning or experience to take on a job in that field of work.
A good deal of Diploma and Degree Courses I have seen from Non EU and EU Citizens have been completed in very short periods of time and without accreditation to any particular reputable University or Institute. I have even seen Business and/or Accounts Degrees completed in less than one year. I also see quite allot of applicants with very unusual Degrees like e.g. "Business and Wood Farming Degree", I ask myself what is this person doing applying for our job ?????.
To be honest all this rises to the surface at interview stage, I feel that the level and standard of Education at Third Level abroad is more interested with "Fancy Sounding" accreditations or Courses, nice exam fees and churning out numbers rather than satisfying the employment market and their students. Quite like the Kangaroo English Colleges set up here for the Chinese.
Ireland has a very high standard of Third Level Education around the world; I believe that is why it is much harder to get ahead here. We once had a guy from India who told everyone he had a Computer Degree, which he did have on paper; it came from some University in Bombay. The trouble was he knew nothing about Computers; he was let go after 4 days, as he could not even perform the most basic tasks. I felt sorry for him, don’t know how he spent his time studying in Bombay but it was nothing to do with Computers.
Their should be some sort of Guidance given to these immigrants on how to apply for positions that they would be most suited, as I am sure there is large number who actually do know their speciality and could perform likewise here.
To be honest all this rises to the surface at interview stage, I feel that the level and standard of Education at Third Level abroad is more interested with "Fancy Sounding" accreditations or Courses, nice exam fees and churning out numbers rather than satisfying the employment market and their students. Quite like the Kangaroo English Colleges set up here for the Chinese.
Ireland has a very high standard of Third Level Education around the world; I believe that is why it is much harder to get ahead here. We once had a guy from India who told everyone he had a Computer Degree, which he did have on paper; it came from some University in Bombay. The trouble was he knew nothing about Computers; he was let go after 4 days, as he could not even perform the most basic tasks. I felt sorry for him, don’t know how he spent his time studying in Bombay but it was nothing to do with Computers.
Their should be some sort of Guidance given to these immigrants on how to apply for positions that they would be most suited, as I am sure there is large number who actually do know their speciality and could perform likewise here.
Ireland has a very high standard of Third Level Education around the world; I believe that is why it is much harder to get ahead here. We once had a guy from India who told everyone he had a Computer Degree, which he did have on paper; it came from some University in Bombay. The trouble was he knew nothing about Computers; he was let go after 4 days, as he could not even perform the most basic tasks. I felt sorry for him, don’t know how he spent his time studying in Bombay but it was nothing to do with Computers.
I also knew an 1-H Irish eng graduate from a well unknow university which couldn't even apply Kirchoff's Laws to a simple circuit...........It knew all the latest thing it learnt about OP-AMPs. Good memory no brains ......
hmmmmmm
I also knew an 1-H Irish eng graduate from a well unknow university which couldn't even apply Kirchoff's Laws to a simple circuit...........It knew all the latest thing it learnt about OP-AMPs. Good memory no brains ......
hmmmmmm