Tax on second non-PAYE income

I think the simple answer to your question OP is, assuming you're happy that you're competent to do the job, you need to be paid as an employee for the service you provide. Simple.
 
The requirement for a practising certificate comes from the Institute and is not a legal requirement. The Institute prohibits a member from doing any work for the public, including family members, without one.

The only legal prohibition on anybody doing any work in the accountancy field is that to sign an audit report one must be a Registered Auditor.
 
Thanks all for your comments. Yes I have just been trying to identify the most efficient to go about this process. Be it go on the payroll and apply for a tax credit from Revenue for UK tax paid or apply for the PC and PI and invoice accordingly and do a self-assessment annually. These are things I now need to look into further. Its not a complex business and I've plenty of accounting experience in a range of industries and as is the norm with most companies, we do contact accounting firms if an expert opinion is sought on a particular matter!
 
Do you have a spouse? Do they work? You could put this income in her/his name perhaps. Thereby avoiding any conflict with the institute.
 
Rocka2 said:
Thanks all for your comments. Yes I have just been trying to identify the most efficient to go about this process. Be it go on the payroll and apply for a tax credit from Revenue for UK tax paid or apply for the PC and PI and invoice accordingly and do a self-assessment annually. These are things I now need to look into further. Its not a complex business and I've plenty of accounting experience in a range of industries and as is the norm with most companies, we do contact accounting firms if an expert opinion is sought on a particular matter!
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If you're employed by the UK company in Ireland and exercise your employment here then it's Irish payroll and Irish taxes that need to be operated...
 
Yes I need to complete a self assessment with Irish Revenue as my ultimate tax responsibility is with the country where I live. Ireland has a double taxation treaty with the UK.
 
Rocka2 said:
Yes I need to complete a self assessment with Irish Revenue as my ultimate tax responsibility is with the country where I live. Ireland has a double taxation treaty with the UK.
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Is that in response to my post?

If so, I don't think you've understood what I'm saying. Double taxation is irrelevant, if a U.K. Company hires you in Ireland to work for them in Ireland then the ONLY taxes that apply are in Ireland. If your only income is Irish PAYE then you have no need to complete a self assessment.
 
Rocka2 said:
So my UK employer would pay my payroll taxes straight to Irish Revenue?
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They seem to be acting through a PE in Ireland so yes. If your job is based almost wholly in Southern Ireland.

See article 15.1 in the DTA "Subject to the provisions of Article 17 and 18, salaries, wages and other similar remuneration derived by a resident of a Contracting State in respect of an employment shall be taxable only in that State unless the employment is exercised in the other Contracting State. If the employment is so exercised, such remuneration as is derived therefrom may be taxed in that other State."

I've seen a HRMC Revenue audit for a contractor with a PE in the UK get a FC sacked with this oversight. 50 UK employees who were brought over from Ireland all on the Irish payroll.
 
OK well seeing as my brother will be the sole director and shareholder of the company and will get paid by way of dividends instead of a salary, he has a salary from another job, its best to get the practising cert and PI and invoice accordingly. There are no employees in the business and its more tax efficient for himself to be paid a dividend.
 
A practising certificate and even PI are not things you can get just for the asking. I don't know the current requirements for a cert but, basically you need to show that you are able to do the job of an accountant in public practice, are you ? What CPD have you done recently in this area.

As for Public Indemnity insurance, its a nightmare. You need to have a run off period, say you work in public practice for a year in 2017, a claim for negligence could arise a few years down the line say 2020 based on work you did in 2017, so your PI needs to still be in place in 2020. When you retire from practice, you need run off PI.

All in all hardly something you can afford just to do some work for your brothers part time start up.
 
Rocka2 said:
OK well seeing as my brother will be the sole director and shareholder of the company and will get paid by way of dividends instead of a salary, he has a salary from another job, its best to get the practising cert and PI and invoice accordingly. There are no employees in the business and its more tax efficient for himself to be paid a dividend.
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Why is it more tax efficient to take dividends? Is that a UK thing?
 
So I looked up the ICAI website to see when and when not a practicing cert is needed. Unfortunately Im unable to attached the link in this response as im not a member of this forum for at least five days! Seems a bit strange! I can attach it in 3 days time.

However, Section 5.6 of the CARB document on Public Practice Regulations details when an accountant is not dealing in public practice and therefore a practicing cert is not required. Paragraph G (iii) makes reference to providing accountancy services to family members for a small nominal fee. True in all fairness I mentioned a bigger fee above which is really just a goodwill guesture on my brothers part as his business happens to be something much more substantial than a "part time set up". But this fee can be easily waived as in all honestly I want to help my brothers business to grow. Really the issue is here if i am allowed to provide assistance to my brothers business.

Section 5.6 Extract:

"A member shall not be deemed to be engaged in public practice in the following circumstances: (a) A member who is employed in public practice does not by virtue of his or her employment engage in public practice. (b) A member who acts as a director of companies does not thereby engage in public practice unless one or more of these companies is a public practice. (c) A consultant to a firm providing accountancy services is not engaged in public practice by virtue of his or her consultancy if he or she provides accountancy and related services to the firm and not directly to the clients of the firm. (d) A sub-contractor to a firm providing accountancy services is not engaged in public practice by virtue of his or her sub-contract if he or she provides accountancy and related services under a written agreement indemnifying him or her from risk and in no way holds himself or herself out to be a principal of the firm. (e) A member who is a principal in a firm whose sole purpose is to provide finance or insurance services or computer installation, applications or training. (f) A member who acts as a bookkeeper is not engaged in public practice by virtue of his or her bookkeeping activities alone. (g) A member who gratuitously or for a nominal amount (which is in the nature of expenses): 31 (i) provides accountancy services to a small charitable, community, religious or sporting body, or to similar bodies of a non-profit making nature, whose income is less than €355,000 (£250,000); or (ii) acts as an auditor to a small entity within the definition at (i) above that is not required to be audited by a registered auditor; or (iii) provides accountancy or tax services for family members or friends provided these third parties are aware that the services are not being provided by way of a business and are being provided gratuitously or for a nominal amount (which is in the nature of expenses)."


DB47 - yes I think this is just a UK thing. Not so generous in Ireland however it comes from profit after tax as opposed to a salary which would be tax deductible. Its better in terms of income tax but not corporation tax.
 
I was going to say it but didn't. Bookkeeping services are exempt from Public Practice. It is on the handbook but its hard to say bookkeeping and management accounts are different or submitting a VAT return and representing the client with third parties are different. All in all its a tangled web. I must say it is quite silly when you consider a lay man can go out and prepare books for somebody with no consequence to his livelihood where if are a qualified accountant who does 10k worth of work for family and friends you can be struck off and reprimanded. Something that the institute is going to have to address. IMO only income of in excess of 25k should be subject to public practice registration. It would let fellows get off the ground without reprimand and also allow qualified accountants have more influence in the local community.
 
A local guy here has a Company with a 90k turnover a year in an accounting/bookkeeping company. His an accounting technician and making a net profit of about 30k after a decent 40k salary. At the end of the day either accounting needs regulation of some sort to stop ineligible "firms" or the institutes need to take a step back on members. In my honest opinion. What do ye think lads? P.S. Its fair enough to not allow the Chartered Accountant logo for non practicing members however let them try to develop a small client list themselves without striking them off or fining them thousands.
 
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