Referendum on EU budget deal

Discussion in 'Economic issues' started by Shawady, Feb 28, 2012.

  1. Shawady

    Shawady Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    941
  2. michaelm

    michaelm Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,313
    "Bend over and think of Ireland", perhaps?

    I'm mildly surprised that Shatter was rolled out first (on RTE DriveTime) to bat for a Yes given he helped sink the Dáil Powers referendum.
     
  3. Chris

    Chris Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,325
    "If you vote no the first time we'll just have another vote!"
     
  4. Sunny

    Sunny Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    3,102
    To be fair, it is very easy to criticise politicians but this was a brave decision. Would have been easy for the AG to say it wasn't needed. There is pressure in places like France for the people there to have a referendum but they won't. Of course it could backfire on us as well.

    Having said that, wonder if this is just a clever gamble by the Government in that they know the EU will probabaly have to bribe us for a 'yes' vote. Reckon we will be seeing movement on the Anglo Promissary Notes before the Referendum.
     
  5. michaelm

    michaelm Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,313
    I wouldn't be inclined to accuse our politicians of bravery. Clearly they wouldn't be holding a referendum unless they felt constitutionally compelled to do so.

    We are effectively in at the deep-end with one hand tied behind our back and we are being asked to tie the other hand behind our back also. It'll be a Nein from me. Paddy Power have it priced up this morning as 4/6 Yes, 11/10 No, which seems about right to me. I heard Creightion on the radio this morning saying a No would cost jobs; perhaps the Lisbon 2 "Yes To Jobs" posters can be reused as an environmentally friendly move (save us a few quid on carbon credits). They are really going to have to go in hard with the scare tactics on this one.
     
  6. Ancutza

    Ancutza Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    501
    A quick straw poll perhaps? 'No' from me too.
     
  7. bullworth

    bullworth Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    646
    Nein !
     
  8. Jazz01

    Jazz01 Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    457
  9. Sunny

    Sunny Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    3,102
    What are people voting Yes or No to? Anyone actually read what is being proposed?
     
  10. theoneill

    theoneill Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    357
    Septic tanks? :)
     
  11. michaelm

    michaelm Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,313
    I'm voting no to the further surrender of national sovereignty.
     
  12. Ancutza

    Ancutza Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    501
    Me too.
     
  13. theoneill

    theoneill Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    357
    Regardless of of the merits of the treaty, unless we are offered a big juicy carrot I can't see this referendum being passed.
     
  14. Sunny

    Sunny Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    3,102
    What sovereignty are we handing over that we haven't handed over already? I am not arguing against you but I haven't read the treaty in detail so I have no idea.
     
  15. Shawady

    Shawady Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    941
    I think one of the problems the government is going to have is to convince people that our Corporation Tax is safe. Before the last referendum, when our european neighbours wanted a Yes vote , we were told Corp Tax was safe. Yet, since then the German and particularly the French government have being making an issue of it. They have made no secret of the fact that they would like to see it raised.

    There may be nothing in this referendum about it , but I would be afraid that with closer integration we may be forced to change it at some stage.
     
  16. elcato

    elcato Moderator

    Posts:
    2,061
    Surely the deal is that we have to keep spending v tax receipts to a much lower level than we currently do ? i.e. that we can't borrow our way out as we have been doing for zonks. This can't be a bad thing. I don't see it as a bad thing either that Germany and France will keep an eye on what our great idiots who seem to want to spend today as long as they are still getting paid and to hell with the next lot that come up in 20 years time. If we go bust this will have to happen straight away (the spend v tax receipt balance will be have to be equal).
     
  17. 44brendan

    44brendan Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    1,885
    The difficulties in asking people to vote on this issue is that it will be represented as a vote for austerity or no austerity, or alternativly a vote of confidence in the Government.
    The above post exactly outlines the position that is being presented to all EURO currency members for approval. The facts in respect of imposition of Austerity, Household Charges, septic Tank charge etc will remain unchanged, no matter how this vote goes.
    Certain parties in opposition will try to present this to the populace as a "Get out of Jail Card" & if they are prepared to outline the specifics of how additional taxes etc can be avoided, then we should listen. However, I don't see that happening.
    The issues that we are being asked to sign up to are reasonable and necessary. Whether this treaty is approved or not, we will still have to put through all of the above mentioned charges, amongst others.
    Rejection of the Treaty will lead to uncertainty over our access to Funds, once the current Bailout expires. This morning a Sinn Fein spokseman admiitted this, but expressed confidence that we can borrow on the Market or that the EMF will bail us out.
    The EU are not dependent on Ireland this time & there is no incentive for them to offer us any sweetner for a Yes vote. This Treaty will be carried through for other members, even if we vote no.
    By all means feel free to vote no, but at least do so on the full understanding that such a vote will not improve our financial position at best and at worst is likley to considerably weaken it.
     
  18. Purple

    Purple Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    6,180
    I agree with this.

    As for the "surrendering of our sovereignty", sure that was done 3-10 years ago without us knowing about it; it was inevitable that once the bubble burst we wouldn't be able to pay our way. It was also inevitable that whomever gave us the money to run our country would want to have a say in how we spent their money. That's not unreasonable. There's long historical precedent here; the Ottoman Empire was deconstructed because it couldn't pay it's bondholders (with the French and British taking over the running of Egypt because it owed so much money to their banks).

    I'll probably vote yes because there's no other option, despite what the mutton-heads on the loony left, former terrorists or some celebrity economists say.
     
  19. Calico

    Calico Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    329
    The heart says no, but the head says yes.

    Truth be told, we need enforceable limits on spending. And bank debt aside, which I agree we shouldn't have to pay, we can't keep spending money we don't have.
     
  20. potnoodler

    potnoodler Frequent Poster

    Posts:
    309
    Thinking this may be the case, the euro politicians don't seem too happy about the referendum , don't seem to like that side if democracy , didnt they freak out when Greece tried it