Proposed abortion Referendum

[S.L.F]

I know it's a minor issue in the scheme of things and I know there are no good outcomes, just less bad ones, but if the father wants to keep the baby is it right that he has no voice? If he doesn't want to keep it is it right that he has no voice? Pregnancy lasts 9 months. Parenthood is for life. and yet he has no say in whether be becomes a parent of not.
The guilt and mental health issues arising from all outcomes from an unwanted pregnancy can also last a lifetime.

Not to mention that even if he does want to see the child and doesn't get access he will still be obligated by Irish law to provide maintenance for all of his offspring.

He has all the responsibilities and none of the choices.

It makes no sense to me that he has all the responsibilities and none of the choices.

Why can't both parents of a baby get automatic custody?

 

[Purple]

Old thread but current topic.

I was surprised and pleased to see Michaél Martin speaking in the Dail debate yesterday.
I think it was brave and commendable for his to do so. It would be good to see Leo and other Party leaders follow suit.

 

[michaelm]

I was only half surprised. He should join FG.

 

[PMU]

I was surprised and pleased to see Michaél Martin speaking in the Dail debate yesterday.
I think it was brave and commendable for his to do so.

Brave? Gimme a break. Yonks ago Conor Cruise O'Brien identified the FF response when confronted with moral issues. He said ”Fianna Fail knows a moral issue when it sees one, and it knows what you do about a thing like that. What you do is, you find out what is the electorally rewarding approach to the moral issue in question, and you adopt that approach forthwith.” Leopards never change their spots!

 

[Purple]

Brave? Gimme a break. Yonks ago Conor Cruise O'Brien identified the FF response when confronted with moral issues. He said ”Fianna Fail knows a moral issue when it sees one, and it knows what you do about a thing like that. What you do is, you find out what is the electorally rewarding approach to the moral issue in question, and you adopt that approach forthwith.” Leopards never change their spots!

The opportunistic and politically advantageous thing to do is to say nothing.
I don't put much store in the opinions of the Cruzer; a man with an intellect which was always overshadowed by his towering ego.

 

[Purple]

I was only half surprised. He should join FG.

Why?

 

[michaelm]

The idea that he was pro-life but changed his mind over Christmas having read the 'report' is a laughable. He's simply backing a report his pro-choice proxies on the committee had a big hand in framing. Previously he tried, and failed, to force his party to back the nonsense 'abortion as a treatment for suicidality' legislation. He now has compassion for everyone but the unborn child. He clearly believes that wind is blowing is another direction so he's gonna bend that way, while stealing a march on Varadkar. I don't believe there are many conviction politicians.

FG are the party who legalised abortion in Ireland. Martin was has been happy to prop up FG under Kenny and now under show pony Leo . . he should just join them.

 

[Purple]

The idea that he was pro-life but changed his mind over Christmas having read the 'report' is a laughable. He's simply backing a report his pro-choice proxies on the committee had a big hand in framing. Previously he tried, and failed, to force his party to back the nonsense 'abortion as a treatment for suicidality' legislation. He now has compassion for everyone but the unborn child. He clearly believes that wind is blowing is another direction so he's gonna bend that way, while stealing a march on Varadkar. I don't believe there are many conviction politicians.

FG are the party who legalised abortion in Ireland. Martin was has been happy to prop up FG under Kenny and now under show pony Leo . . he should just join them.

I'm not an FF supporter or voter but I doubt that Michaél Martin, who has experienced the death of his own little girl, is acting cynically here.

 

[michaelm]

I don't doubt it, so we'll have to differ on that count.

 

[Purple]

I don't doubt it, so we'll have to differ on that count.

So you are 100% sure of the motivations of Michaél Martin in this matter. You must know him well at a personal level to hold such a view beyond any doubt. When did you first meet him?

 

[michaelm]

Indeed, I should know better . I'll put a line through I don't doubt and go for in my view his seemingly Damascene conversion is a political calculation. Will that do?

 

[Purple]

Indeed, I should know better . I'll put a line through I don't doubt and go for in my view his seemingly Damascene conversion is a political calculation. Will that do?

Yep

 

[Sunny]

This is just going to be one of those pointless threads and this and all other threads on this subject should be closed. The referendum is going to happen. It is going to divide people. People are not going to change their minds. This threads in the past have always become highly personal and heated. The subject is too important and personal for too many people for the 'Letting Off Steam' section of AskAboutMoney. Close it and ban the topic from this site I say.

 

[michaelm]

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! Yes, 'Letting Off Steam' should be all about group hugs and renamed to 'Safe Space' . Alternatively, maybe don't read it.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I am certainly not going to get involved in the central debate for the reasons Sunny has outlined. But the question as to whether MM's surprise and possibly game changing announcement was motivated by political self interest or by personal conviction, knowing the political aspects were highly risky, is an interesting one.

Certainly nobody gets to being a politician of MM's standing without having political nous and so I take it that MM has judged that politically this could bounce well for him. That is not to say that this radical change does not carry personal conviction.

On balance, and having regard to his robust line against coalition with SF for example, I give him the benefit of the doubt. Two cheers Micheál

 

[Sunny]

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! Yes, 'Letting Off Steam' should be all about group hugs and renamed to 'Safe Space' . Alternatively, maybe don't read it.

No it shouldn't be. It also shouldn't be a place where nameless people from both sides get to repeat the same views over and over again. Stand on a crate in the centre of your local town/city if you want to get your view on abortion out there. Do it on another website. This debate was had on this site before and it had to eventually ended. Neither you nor I have any idea about the personal circumstances about any of the people who use this site but this site is there to help people with financial advice. It's called Askaboutmoney, not askaboutwhatpeoplethinkaboutabortion. And maybe instead of advising people not to read something and make part of the website unwelcome for everyone that uses it, we can just agree not to discuss this topic on this forum. If you have views on multiple explanation marks, George Hook, coughing and sneezing by all means make them in LOS but this is not the forum for discussing abortion. Especially when the majority of contributors don't use their real names. It makes it less of a discussion and more of a free for all.

 

[Delboy]

This is just going to be one of those pointless threads and this and all other threads on this subject should be closed. The referendum is going to happen. It is going to divide people. People are not going to change their minds.

I don't know....a fair few politicians have been on a 'journey' in the past few months and are going to support repeal. No one has been on a journey in the opposite direction though!

As for the leader of FF....I'm surprised that some people are congratulating Martin's decision. It's FF ...why are you surprised?

 

[michaelm]

Do it on another website . . It's called Askaboutmoney, not askaboutwhatpeoplethinkaboutabortion.

Methinks you're getting a little precious about AAM. It covers a multitude. I'm suggesting you don't read this thread, not avoid the forum. BTW I didn't start this thread or revive it. I don't think I've ever started an abortion thread but I make no apology for having a strong opinion on the subject.

LOS is just a PIAF (Pointless Internet Argument Forum rather than a deceased French worbbler). It has survived many a robust argument on controversial issues. But perhaps you're right, God forbid that a strong opinion or a glib comment should hurt anyone's sensibilities. A white-list, perhaps?

 

[Leo]

It's called Askaboutmoney, not askaboutwhatpeoplethinkaboutabortion.

It is, but there is also a collection of 18 forums, of which LOS is one, called Don'tAskAboutMoney. These aren't the core business of AAM but were set up to facilitate demand from AAM members to discuss topics other than those dealt with in the core financial forums on this site. There are very few banned topics on AAM, this isn't one of them.

It also shouldn't be a place where nameless people from both sides get to repeat the same views over and over again.

Welcome to the internet. Nameless people get to repeat their views on any forum or thread on this site and many others. Those reading these views need to make their own minds up as to their own point of view and likely shouldn't rely solely on the likes of AAM in order to come to an informed opinion.

Are we likely to have a well balanced debate on this topic with input from all spectrums of society? No, but such is the nature of the internet, an all encompassing balanced debate is nigh on impossible to achieve without massive moderation effort.

 

[Sunny]

It is, but there is also a collection of 18 forums, of which LOS is one, called Don'tAskAboutMoney. These aren't the core business of AAM but were set up to facilitate demand from AAM members to discuss topics other than those dealt with in the core financial forums on this site. There are very few banned topics on AAM, this isn't one of them.

Welcome to the internet. Nameless people get to repeat their views on any forum or thread on this site and many others. Those reading these views need to make their own minds up as to their own point of view and likely shouldn't rely solely on the likes of AAM in order to come to an informed opinion.

Are we likely to have a well balanced debate on this topic with input from all spectrums of society? No, but such is the nature of the internet, an all encompassing balanced debate is nigh on impossible to achieve without massive moderation effort.

I am not talking about having a balanced debate on this subject on AAM. I am not talking about AAM informing peoples views on this subject. What on earth is to be gained by discussing it on this forum? The forum is called Letting off steam for God's sake. By it's very name, it is where people go to vent. And you think it is a good idea for people to 'vent' on something like abortion or peoples views on abortion?

Fair enough, if people are really sad enough to want to discuss such a topic on a website called Askaboutmoney so they can once again spout their views one way or another (they are probably already doing so on 100 other websites) then fair enough. I am finished with it though so enjoy folks.