Ulster Prime Time report on Ulster Bank customer who lost tracker

[notabene]

Hi Niamh

Can you tell us a bit more about this? As I understand it, this decision was made under the previous Ombudsman Bill Prasifka.

Did Ger Deering have any comments on the decision?

Brendan

Hi Brendan,

It was when I met Ger in February, I asked him could he not change it, particularly in light of the new evidence (the emails) and he said no that it was a legally binding decision & the only way to change it was to go to court.

He was somewhat empathetic but did say I could be worse off, that there were people in worse situations and that I had gotten one of the biggest awards.

Now that is true, but it doesn't resolve the situation & it isn't fair either - should you accept a decision just because you are better off than others?

It was after that, at the end of March that I went to get legal advice on it.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

He was somewhat empathetic but did say I could be worse off, that there were people in worse situations and that I had gotten one of the biggest awards.

Did he tell you how they arrived at the figure of €25,000?

Did he agree that you should have got your tracker back? In other words, that the decision of the previous FSO was wrong?

Fair play to him for meeting with you and explaining that they could do nothing about a wrong decision. But he should be sending your case to the Central Bank and telling them to make sure to include it in the review.

Brendan

 

[notabene]

I agree Brendan, he was very good to meet me and give me his time and he did seem to recognise huge change was needed there

We met as I had done a data request looking for the calculations and when they weren't able to provide them, I said I would make a complaint as they had to be there and at this time I also provided him with copies of the emails. I hadn't done that as soon as I had gotten them as I was waiting for the 40 days to have to allow for a data request to be carried out to expire.

After receiving this email he rang me and invited me to come into meet him, he also said I could go through my full file. In fairness to him, they made a lot of time available to me, someone sat down with me and went through the full file on the computer but there were no calculations and I was told that they don't make calculations to work out the full cost to the consumer, they come up with a figure they feel is appropriate and this is reflected in the above emails where the bank is asserting that there is no rationale used.

I'm not sure how this ever became the method, but he did tell me that traditionally it has been mainly solicitors working there but they were now looking for mediators and I was joking that I would apply(!)

I then met Ger himself and we spent a full hour going through my file, where upon he commented it is one of the most extensive files that they have seen. We discussed remedies available at this stage and he explained that as the decision was legally binding unless I went to court it couldn't be changed, as things stand, but that that didn't preclude the bank from doing the right thing. He did say he would reccommend my case to the Central Bank for examination & that he would write to all of the banks regarding the review of all cases gone though his office, successful or unsuccessful.

We also discussed the length of time it took and that he hopes the new process will alleviate that. I had been told by an official in October 2012 it would take 5 months and then it was not resolved until December 2014

He thought that the banks were gaming the system when he saw all of what happened and the emails then also - he took copies also. I think he did feel the resolution as it was was unfair but then he was focusing a bit more on how I wasn't the worst off..

 

[rodger]

In relation to the 6 year limit, Pearse Doherty is bringing a bill to extend the limit

[broken link removed]

And Michael Mc Grath has worked on a bill to address the issue of high variable rates.

The party doing least seems to be FG
And the individual doing least I would suggest is Michael Noonan.

But what can you do now other than wait for the central bank review and hope for the best.

 

[rodger]

What about fines and penalties against these banks?

If UB is found to be in the wrong then they can be fined?

 

[notabene]

I hadn't seen that - it is good an effort is being made in that direction. It would be great if you could take them to the circuit court, as it is far cheaper, but I'm not sure he will be able to do that, simply because the limit of awards in the circuit court is approx €78,000 - but maybe there is a way around it. That is one of the reasons why appeals would have gone to the high court where there are no limits, and the award limit of the circuit court was far lower until last year.

The statute barring would be useful in cases too - does he propose it to be retroactive?

Definitely if you were a customer on a variable watching them go up as the ECB rate went down you would welcome that move, but I'm not sure that is going to be an easy thing to do as it has the potential to make the market not as attractive for a bank to come into. And as far as I understand, the central bank don't want to be doing it.

The central bank can fine them upon investigation - and I'm sure they have or will have with regard to ptsb

Another separate but also important Issue is that people in these cases are in a financial limbo until it is fully sorted out, they can't move house, they can't use that money for other options such as pensions, higher grade of insurance, holidays or general day to day expenses amongst other things. For anyone who has engaged someone to do it for them, which can be a sensible choice, they're paying fees to retrieve their own money.

There is also the stress of it all, mine has been huge and I can only imagine the stress levels of someone who lost their house, horrendous. Not to mention their credit rating

It also eats up time.

Obviously I am biased in these particular observations though!

The bank, again in my own case, refused to accept liability here and when they offered a resolution of €12,500 it was as a 'goodwill payment' when I listed out costs incurred as a result of their actions in response - they then deemed me difficult and returned the case to the ombudsman for adjudication. Making them take responsibility and providing this sort of compensation would also be a deterrent, particularly in case where they should have settled at an earlier date based on knowledge or precedence.

In some ways not much to do but wait, but also it is important to continue to make the story known & continue to pester the bank - at the very least - a further six months of correspondence showing just how difficult they are to deal with!

 

[todo]

We met as I had done a data request looking for the calculations and when they weren't able to provide them, I said I would make a complaint as they had to be there and at this time I also provided him with copies of the emails.

I was told that they don't make calculations to work out the full cost to the consumer, they come up with a figure they feel is appropriate and this is reflected in the above emails where the bank is asserting that there is no rationale used.

Notabene, well done on getting this far, I hope that you get your proper tracker rate restored.

I just find the fact that they make up figures they "feel are appropriate" astonishing, surely you have a case there against the FSO, thats a completely unfair method of calculating compensation. Maybe they weren't feeling generous the day they came up with the figure for your compensation!!!!

Why didn't they meet with you before making a decision on your case, was it the threat of a complaint against them that they decided to give the personal touch.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Another separate but also important Issue is that people in these cases are in a financial limbo until it is fully sorted out, they can't move house, they can't use that money for other options such as pensions, higher grade of insurance, holidays or general day to day expenses amongst other things. For anyone who has engaged someone to do it for them, which can be a sensible choice, they're paying fees to retrieve their own money.

There is also the stress of it all, mine has been huge and I can only imagine the stress levels of someone who lost their house, horrendous. Not to mention their credit rating

It also eats up time.

This is a great depiction of the actual process. Is it any wonder that something like 70% of claims to the FSO just get dropped. The consumer doesn't pursue them. They make a complaint and the company puts up a huge defence and throws everything at it.

Niamh, it would have been so easy for you to just drop the case. Fair play to you for being so dogged.

The insight you got into Ulster's strategy is very useful. They play chicken with them by pushing them all the way up to the adjudication stage, and then make an offer at the last minute.

A lot of people might have crumpled when they got that offer.

Brendan

 

[notabene]

Notabene, well done on getting this far, I hope that you get your proper tracker rate restored.

I just find the fact that they make up figures they "feel are appropriate" astonishing, surely you have a case there against the FSO, thats a completely unfair method of calculating compensation. Maybe they weren't feeling generous the day they came up with the figure for your compensation!!!!

Why didn't they meet with you before making a decision on your case, was it the threat of a complaint against them that they decided to give the personal touch.

The irony is, they were generous by their standards in my case! The previous result was €10,000 which was why the bank offered €12500 - the 2,500 was to 'account for stress'.

I wonder do the FSO have a full understanding of the financial impact of these things - and I'm not sure they do - €25,000 is a lot of money, but it's not when you look at what a tracker is worth. It is double what the bank offered so maybe they thought that was enough.

I was told by three separate people in the office on two occasions that there were no calculations & neither did the data protection request turn any up so as astonishing as it seems, that's what did happen.

Yes, the threat of a complaint & giving them the emails from the bank were what initiated the meeting

 

[notabene]

This is a great depiction of the actual process. Is it any wonder that something like 70% of claims to the FSO just get dropped. The consumer doesn't pursue them. They make a complaint and the company puts up a huge defence and throws everything at it.

Niamh, it would have been so easy for you to just drop the case. Fair play to you for being so dogged.

The insight you got into Ulster's strategy is very useful. They play chicken with them by pushing them all the way up to the adjudication stage, and then make an offer at the last minute.

View attachment 1397

A lot of people might have crumpled when they got that offer.

Brendan

Thanks Brendan!

I think so too - if you had someone who's had a long hard fight, isn't sure they'll win & the bank makes that offer I can see some people calling it a day - if even just to have it finished, particularly if it has been a lengthy period.

The list of costs I sent back to the bank weren't even discussed before they went back to the ombudsman - no attempt at negotiation. They might not like that they are the costs, I certainly don't - but they can't have it every way. They initiated this action originally and these are the costs of it.

I would definitely say if I knew then what I know now, I'm not sure I would have taken it again. In a lot of ways I would be better off if I hadn't - however, once it's started I aim to finish it, properly!

 

[notabene]

"The insight you got into Ulster's strategy is very useful. They play chicken with them by pushing them all the way up to the adjudication stage, and then make an offer at the last minute."

An absolutely unscrupulous strategy I would say but it must work for them!

 

[Freshstart]

Another separate but also important Issue is that people in these cases are in a financial limbo until it is fully sorted out, they can't move house, they can't use that money for other options such as pensions, higher grade of insurance, holidays or general day to day expenses amongst other things. For anyone who has engaged someone to do it for them, which can be a sensible choice, they're paying fees to retrieve their own money.

Thank you so much Niamh for voicing this point. We are part of the PTSB mess and this sums up we're we are right now. We are completely trapped and unable to move on with life due to this. Every cent of our redress money has gone to paying the continued high costs of the rate we were put on. Houses prices in our area are on the rise again and we can do nothing but watch and pray things get resolved soon. My health is at the worst it's ever been due to the stress of it all.

These institutions have played God with people's lives in a lot of cases and they can not be allowed to get away with it or for this to continue. Frankly it's embarrassing for the Irish government that the banks are laughing at them and calling the shots.

 

[notabene]

Thank you so much Niamh for voicing this point. We are part of the PTSB mess and this sums up we're we are right now. We are completely trapped and unable to move on with life due to this. Every cent of our redress money has gone to paying the continued high costs of the rate we were put on. Houses prices in our area are on the rise again and we can do nothing but watch and pray things get resolved soon. My health is at the worst it's ever been due to the stress of it all.

These institutions have played God with people's lives in a lot of cases and they can not be allowed to get away with it or for this to continue. Frankly it's embarrassing for the Irish government that the banks are laughing at them and calling the shots.

Ah It's awful for you, I can completely empathise, Financial Limbo- I had also hoped to move in 2012/13 also, and at the time Ulster were letting people move unencumbered with their tracker which was one of the reasons I went to the Ombudsman to get it back & I had become more aware I was not the only one in that situation. Similarly, since, house prices in my local area have doubled, mortgage lending rules have changed & I'm another four years older, none of it ideal! I also agree re Heath and stress have also seen similar in myself, poor sleep & other stress related aspects also and the time that could have gone on anything else....

I don't know much about ptsb as such but from what I would read they aren't going down easy, it is so unfair - I remember reading about suggested compensation for those whom had lost their houses of about €50k & the bank saying they could potentially apply for more, I mean as if they hadn't been though enough already and not just them, if any of you haven't been though enough - but doesn't that just show you their regard for the whole thing?

 

[peteb]

Hmmm, this is making me think that I gave up too easy just getting my capital and interest back from UB! Perhaps I should go back and hit them up for some compo!!

When you are relieved to get something back you just forget the time it took to get there!!

 

[SaySomething]

Another separate but also important Issue is that people in these cases are in a financial limbo until it is fully sorted out, they can't move house, they can't use that money for other options such as pensions, higher grade of insurance, holidays or general day to day expenses amongst other things. For anyone who has engaged someone to do it for them, which can be a sensible choice, they're paying fees to retrieve their own money.

There is also the stress of it all, mine has been huge and I can only imagine the stress levels of someone who lost their house, horrendous. Not to mention their credit rating

It also eats up time.

Thank you for articulating this. I don't think people can understand how stressful it is to deal with Ulster Bank. My tracker wasn't returned to me at the end of a fixed period, and as the recession deepened my income declined. I had no option but enter into a MARP (mortgage arrears resolution process) due to decreased income, but arguably I wouldn't have been under so much financial pressure if I'd been allowed to keep my tracker. Now I have exited the MARP but am paying the higher rate of interest on the mortgage, along with the capitalised arrears that accrued while I was in the MARP.

I can't even begin to calculate my way out of this mess, and waiting on the bank to decide whether or not I'm entitled to have my tracker returned to me. Even the MARP process was soul destroying.

 

[rodger]

Hmmm, this is making me think that I gave up too easy just getting my capital and interest back from UB! Perhaps I should go back and hit them up for some compo!!

When you are relieved to get something back you just forget the time it took to get there!!

And did you get your tracker back?

 

[peteb]

I did. But I had to go back and forth to the FSO with question and answers, whereas a friend of mine who I had drafted a letter on behalf of and was in an identical position to me was offered her tracker back by UB.

 

[notabene]

Hmmm, this is making me think that I gave up too easy just getting my capital and interest back from UB! Perhaps I should go back and hit them up for some compo!!

When you are relieved to get something back you just forget the time it took to get there!!

I agree, but I don't necessarily think of it as 'compo' as such - more returning you to the place you should have been in had they not done that - it's not quite, but nearly a full decade and one in which I should have been shoring up my financial security - it has a huge baring on the rest of your life, stress etc aside for a minute.

Can completely see how anyone would accept the other, and for me it's more because my plans were disrupted hugely & it has been so stressful that I think of it. And I would presume that the bank would not have given it much soot - did they accept liability when they returned your capital & interest back?

 

[notabene]

Thank you for articulating this. I don't think people can understand how stressful it is to deal with Ulster Bank. My tracker wasn't returned to me at the end of a fixed period, and as the recession deepened my income declined. I had no option but enter into a MARP (mortgage arrears resolution process) due to decreased income, but arguably I wouldn't have been under so much financial pressure if I'd been allowed to keep my tracker. Now I have exited the MARP but am paying the higher rate of interest on the mortgage, along with the capitalised arrears that accrued while I was in the MARP.

I can't even begin to calculate my way out of this mess, and waiting on the bank to decide whether or not I'm entitled to have my tracker returned to me. Even the MARP process was soul destroying.

An awful situation to be in and hugely stressful you poor thing. I also was on hugely declined hours, down to 6 a week at one stage as there was a moratorium on hiring & making teachers permanent for a lot of that time ( another story!) but I was lucky in that different bits and pieces came along to keep me going so I put the mortgage first and cut out a lot of other stuff. But that pales in comparison, and on going on a higher interest rate, it's really a nightmare isn't it?

Don't worry too much about the calculations though when the time comes you can get someone to do that for you, but if you feel up to it in the meantime maybe gather your mortgage statements so you have it all ready to go - and I'm sure it is completely gauling to see the way they treated you in the first instance and now when it's them on the spot the way they are still treating you. They are incredibly difficult to deal with. I have just been persistent with them and keep writing but it is hard work! And if you get someone on the phone the circles they talk in - they won't even say their next report has to be finished by 30th Sept! Hopefully this will all get sorted for you soon too.

 

[notabene]

I did. But I had to go back and forth to the FSO with question and answers, whereas a friend of mine who I had drafted a letter on behalf of and was in an identical position to me was offered her tracker back by UB.

Was that after yours? Did it take you long to get yours back?