OECD report on Irish Education

Brendan Burgess

Brendan Burgess

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On Radio 1's news this morning I heard a positive report on Irish education by the OECD. We are much more equal in our education than average. We are better educated that average. The only negative was that we were slightly behind in maths. And our top performers are not as good as other top performers.

The Irish Times spin is so completely different:

Low Irish maths standards criticized

OECD report finds 15 year olds performing at only average levels compared to counterparts.

Irish scores were particularly low in geometry

The relatively poor performance of Irish students in maths ...confirms a picture evident in recent State exams.
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While the Irish Times does show that we came 6th in reading skills, the overall tone is extremely negative.
 
I too was struck by the contrast between the IT report and the RTÉ report.

The RTÉ while more upbeat and positive lacked any real analysis. The two ladies did not seem to have a grasp of what 'mathematics' is and were floundering in their analysis. At one stage one of them said something like 'maths is not really relevant to real life'.

And our top performers are not as good as other top performers.
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People who are familiar with Quality Management will recognise the "Normal Distribution Curve" here. You can have a 'fairer' system which will reduce variation - the up side is that you have fewer a the low end of the scale but the down side is that you have correspondingly fewer at the top end of the scale.

The 'Quality' approach is to reduce variation first and then imporve the mean. In this respect we are ahead of other cournties who have a bigger variation. Attempts to move the mean up before reducing the variation are doomed to failure. But just look at the English attempt just that as they tinker and fiddle with their education system.

ajapale
 
Well ajapale, you have done more to explain and contextualise the OECD report than the IT (the paper of record) or RTE.
Well done! :)
 
ajapale,

A Letter to the editor might be in order.
Good Post.

-Rd
 
I meant to post this first thing, I also heard that excuse for a report on RTÉ. The women were the embodiment of the report, completely clueless on the subject of mathematics. Maths has no real life basis …er come again!!. On second thoughts stick with your brand of journalism which really seems to have no real-life connections
 
And from the Irish Independent today...

Irish Schools make the grade
OECD report reveals second-level education ranks among highest in world

So the Indo and RTE saw the three quarters full glass and the Irish Times saw quarter empty glass.

I did not hear the RTE girls say "Maths has no real life basis ...". In an interview it was said that the way that maths is thought in Ireland is very theoretical while the approach in other countries is much different - it applies to more real life situations. The same test was used in all the countries surveyed, so if there was a less theoretical bias, we might have been at a disadvantage. In my day, it was very practical. "If it takes three men two days to paint a 10ft wall, how many men will be required to paint a 20ft wall, in three days?". Mind you, I have never appplied it yet in real life.

Brendan
 
"If it takes three men two days to paint a 10ft wall...

.. then bad maths isn't all we have to worry about! :lol

A colleague who teaches Maths at third level had a nice after-dinner gag about how "back in his day", a typical Leaving Cert question might have run something along the lines of:

A dealer buys a car for £1,800 and sells it for £2,175.
Calculate the profit.

By the mid-90s, it would have been changed to:

A dealer buys a car for £1,800 and sells it for £2,175.
Take the small number away from the bigger number and calculate the profit.

Next year, he reckons it'll be:

A dealer buys a car for £1,800 and sells it for £2,175.
Underline the bigger number.
 
What is mathematics?

Does our discussion need to go back to first principles (to coin a phrase)? What do you understand by Mathematics?

Most people (the two ladies on RTÉ this morning and some contributors here) have a very narrow view (mathematics is the same as arithmetic).

A brief look at the current leaving cert curriculum (higher and lower levels) might give some insight into the breath and scope of mathematics.

from: [broken link removed]

Algebra is a major topic on the first paper, accounting for the first two questions and usually a part of question 5. The abilities learned while studying algebra are used throughout the maths course.
Complex numbers and matrices Complex numbers deal with the so-called 'imaginary unit', i, which stands for the square root of -1.
Sequences and Series This is quite a varied topic, ranging from sequences, series and limits to the Binomial Theorem, binomial expansions and proof by induction.
Differentiation One of the most important, and interesting, topics on the course is differentiation, or differential calculus, which is one of the two branches of what is known as 'the calculus'.
Integration is the second half of the topic known as calculus. Although integration is the reverse of differentiation, completely different methods are used to calculate integrals from those used in differentiation.
The Line and Transformations Question 3 on Paper Two is concerned with both of these topics, which are connected in that they both deal with the Cartesian plane. The basic methods and formulae of co-ordinate geometry will be familiar.
Vectors Question 2 on Paper Two deals with the topic of Vectors. Traditionally, this has been viewed as one of the more straightforward questions, and one of the shorter topics.
The Circle Co-ordinate geometry of the circle (or simply 'The Circle') is the second of the co-ordinate topics on the course. It is assumed that students studying The Circle have an adequate working knowledge of the ideas from The Line.
Trigonometry Trigonometry is one of the most important topics on the course and can be problematic for many students.
Probability & Statistics The last two questions in Section A on Paper Two deal with what is known as Discrete Maths - this means questions will be put on permutations, combinations, probability, statistics and difference equations.
Further Calculus and Series In Section B on Paper Two, there are questions on four Option topics of which students choose one. More than 90% of students take Further Calculus and Series as their option question.
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So the next time you need to do a search you can consider thanking the Mathematicians at Google for developing the algorithms.

While Mental Arithmetic is a fine and laudable personal skill it is only a small fraction of what mathematics is all about.

ajapale

Does anyone know is the OECD report available on line?
 
Most people (the two ladies on RTÉ this morning and some contributors here) have a very narrow view (mathematics is the same as arithmetic).
Click to expand...

AJ

I don't think that either of the two girls on RTE expressed any view on what maths is or is not. They just quoted a view that maths as thought in Ireland is more theoretical and less practical. They were not expressing a value judgement as to whether simple aritmetic has a higher value than more theoretical maths. They were quoting a view by way of a possible explanation for why we were doing better in other aspects of our education system.

Have you read the full report yet? Is the RTE report more accurate than the Irish Times report?

Brendan
 
Hi Brendan,

The report can be downloaded in pdf format chapter by chapter here : [broken link removed]

I have only read the press release and have skimmed the chapter on mathematics.

As an engineer, mathematics has always been about the 'real world' for me. I learned Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry and Applied Maths in a fairly integrated fashion. But I might have to accept that for many 15 year olds this is not the case.

I found the the following extract from the PISA report illuminating.

When thinking about what mathematics might mean for individuals, one must consider both the extent to which they possess mathematical knowledge and understanding, and the extent to which they can activate their mathematical competencies to solve problems they encounter in life.

PISA therefore presents students with problems mainly set in real-world situations. These are crafted in such a way that aspects of mathematics would be of genuine benefit in solving the problem.

The objective of the PISA assessment is to obtain measures of the extent to which students presented with these problems can activate their mathematical knowledge and competencies to solve such problems successfully.
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I must try to listen to yesterday's Morning Ireland again I might have missed something but I got the distinct impression that they were 'winging' it.

I must also reread the IT report and then I might be in a better postion to comment on whether one report was better than the other.

ajapale
 
But AJ

I think you miss the point. A report was published which appears to reflect well on the Irish education system. The RTE researchers and presenters have to
1)get a quick understanding of that report
2)query why we might not be doing well in one area e.g. maths
3) Convey the substance of the report to the public.

I think that they did this very well. And of course there is an element of "winging it".

I think the Irish Times did it very badly and contributed to the general negative attitude of Irish people. I think your criticisms of the RTE presenters are as unfair as the Irish Times criticism of the Irish educational system.

If a magazine programme such as Pat Kenny wants to discuss how well we teach maths in school and Pat Kenny makes a comment that maths is not practical, then I think you would have a valid complaint.
 
Yes, I did miss the point. mea culpa. So concerned was I to let go my own steam that I didnt notice yours!

RTÉ's coverge was quiet positive and reflected more accurately the content of the report. And, yes I would expect a higher standard of analysis from Pat Kenny that I would form the initial news item. (P Kenny is an engineer and would be well able to analyse the issures, did he cover it on his show?)

www.rte.ie/news/2004/1207/education.html Irish students ahead of counterparts: OECD
Yes the Irish Times Report was very negative. But they were not the only newspaper with a very negative slant.
[broken link removed] One in 10 teens has reading problem
A google news search news.google.com/news?hl=e...earch+News shows a similar depressing negative slant throughout the english speaking world.

www.smh.com.au/news/Natio...click=true
education.guardian.co.uk/...39,00.html
www.timesonline.co.uk/art...44,00.html

Perhaps its a newspaper thing? or an anglo saxon thing?

As an aside do you remember the 1970's and 1980's when the IT's reporting of all things Financial / Business had a negative slant? It took them a long time to thow off that attitude.


ajapale
 
Just looking at the spreadsheet they issue [broken link removed] it looks like the report indicates we're fairly average in the range of subjects tested. The journalists given the report to write up an article just picked a random slant to make it more interesting. The figures for "all" countries are 19/39 for mathematics, 7/39 reading, 15/39 science, 20/39 problem solving. Just taking OECD countries moves us up a little higher. "Ireland Average at Science Related Subjects in Selected Grouping of Countries" isn't an attractive headline.

(BTW there are 4 English speaking countries in the top 7 for reading, leads me to suspect some sort of bias in that test since it's not the case in the other subjects)
 
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