Key Post Missing title deeds / PRA insurance requirements

C

Carmel

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Hi there

We are sale agreed on a house that has missing title deeds. The vendor is supplying an insurance bond to cover the scenario where someone turns up with the deeds after purchase and claims ownership. Searches have been carried out and a statutory declaration will be provided. Our understanding is that this is the 'standard' way to deal with missing title deeds.

The title hasn't been registered before, so we will be required to make the first registration with the Property Registration Authority.

In order to give us absolute title, the Property Registration Authority is requiring that the insurance bond is assigned to them, but so far the insurance company is not consenting to this (discussions are ongoing at the moment).

We are waiting for the PRA and insurance company to come to some agreement, if not the sale will fall through.

Is anyone else in this situation at the moment and have you been through it recently? If so I would love to hear about your experiences.
 
Hi Carmel,

I was just wondering if you got the above title issue resolved. I am currently sale agreed on a property and the same issue has just come to light, the original title deeds were lost and my solicitor has been furnished with a copy of a defective title insurance policy, my solicitor has advised that this is standard procedure, however there will be a qualification on the title.

As I am getting a mortgage to purchase the property and my solicitor has to get approval from the Bank that they will accept same.

I was just wondering how you got on, as I am worried that the sale may fall through as the Bank my not accept the qualification to the title.

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
 
Missing title deeds

Hi there
We are still waiting for this to be sorted out.

The key to it is whether the insurance company will allow the insurance bond to be assigned to the Property Registration Authority (PRA). If they consent to this, then the PRA have indicated that they would allow us to register the property and give us absolute title. My understanding is that if someone then came out of the woodwork with the title deeds claiming rightful ownership, that person would get the benefit of the insurance bond (market value of the house subject to certain conditions) and we would keep the house. There are other requirements such as searches and a statutory declaration, but the key is the assignment of the bond to the PRA.

Our understanding is that the insurance company hasn't previously allowed the bond to be assigned to the Property Registration Authority. They are in discussions over agreed procedures to be followed in the event of a claim. It they don't come to agreement on this, then the sale will fall through as we wouldn't be able to register the property.

Our solicitor has already been in contact with the bank and they said that they were satisfied with the insurance bond etc. But our solicitor spoke with the PRA to check out exactly what they would require in order to allow us to register the property and that is when they specified that the bond would have to be assigned to them.

My understanding is that this issue has arisen because of the requirement for first registration for properties that were previously in the registry of deeds. Previously, the bond would have changed hands between the vendor and the purchaser, but because this property hasn't been registered before, the title now has to meet with the conditions of the PRA in order for them to give us absolute title.

All of the above is my interpretation of what our solicitor has told us, I'm no expert..........
 
Hi Carmel,

Thanks a mill for your help above, I think you know more than my solicitor does.

The latest with my case is the Bank are agreeable to taking the defective insurance policy, my solicitor wanted to get the bank approval before proceeding with the case.

I rang the solicitor today, solicitor was out of the office, however I was advised by the secretary that there was a letter enroute to me, advising that the application for first registration was a long drawn out process and that I may be better off looking for another property. Im really annoyed that the solicitor didn't call to tell me this, as last week I was advise that it should not be a problem.

I have everything else ready to go and I am in a hurry to get the Mortgage Interest Relief before it goes at the end of the month, and really have my heart set on this house, its an absolute nightmare.

I get the impression the solicitor doesn't really know what to do with this case, Im not sure if she has been on to PRA to see what needs to be done for first registration here. I
will call the solicitor tomorrow to discuss the case.

Have you made any progress in your case?
 
Missing title deeds issues

Hi Missy A

The latest on our case is a stalemate between the insurance company and the PRA. The insurance company are adamant that the PRA cannot be named on the bond, as they wouldn't own the house they wouldn't have an insurable interest.
Our solicitor has advised us not to proceed on this basis as there would be no guarantee that we would be able to register the property with the PRA.

I understand that discussions are ongoing, but I'm not that hopeful at the moment.

BTW, we have negotiated a reduction in the purchase price as we have now missed out on mortgage interest relief. But there won't be any purchase at all if the issues around the missing title deeds and bond don't get sorted.

It awful, we had been looking for a house for over a year and now it looks like we won't be able to buy the one that we want!
 
Has any insurance company ever consented to allowing the PRA to be named on the bond? If yes, find that company and get your insurance bond there. If no, sounds like this is a new area with the PRA and you're caught in the crossfires.
 
Other insurance company

Hi Bronte
We've asked about finding an alternative insurance company,but have been informed that it is a specialist area of insurance and that the other company who does it will not consent either.
 
So there are two companies in Ireland that do this sort of insurance but neither of them have ever allowed the PRA on the bond.

So who is correct the PRA or the insurance company. And who can be persuaded to change their mind. Interesting that the bank is happy with the bond and so is your solicitor, you would have thought that would be enough. Somebody needs to knock heads between the PRA and bond company. But I wouldn't like to be the client waiting on this. No doubt your solicitor is sick of it as well.

Maybe giving up on this property is the answer and let the vendor's battle it out with the PRA.
 
Hi carmel,

not sure if last post sent

What exactly does insurance bond mean and are there different types of bond?

I am looking at a house, existing owner is in a home, he was left the house, there is a bond on the property, i will be paying cash, where do i stand? Or should i leg it??

Is house legally mine?
Who gives permission to sell house?

Can members of his family sell it? With or without his permission?

Im new to this so any help is much appreciated,

Also if anyone has any DOES OR DONT please give me a message


Kind regards Danny :)
 
Bond

Hi Danny

The insurance bond I am talking about is to provide cover when purchasing a house for which the title deeds are missing. Basically, if someone turned up with the title deeds after we had purchased it, the bond would pay out the market value of the house to that person (subject to certain conditions). The problem we are having is that the PRA won't register our title if they aren't assigned the bond and the insurance company won't allow the bond to be assigned to them.

I've no idea what kind of a bond is on the house you are considering, I would advise that you consult with your solicitor on that.

C
 
Danny D said:
I am looking at a house, existing owner is in a home, he was left the house, there is a bond on the property, i will be paying cash, where do i stand? Or should i leg it??

:)
Click to expand...

Do you not have a solicitor to act for you?
 
hi guys

i only viewed house two days ago, auctioneer said there is bond on the house and there solicitor hascall the paperwork, he admitted himself he has never heard of one before and could not tell me anymore, i got home that day and my appendex burst in two pieces so im in hospital now and no further info,

you say the bond covers you? i assume you have had to pay for it, like a premium of some sort, im a hands on kinda guy so this kinda stuff aint my thing, my girlfriend then told that the auct. said to her the old man has the deeds but couldnt get them of him and his nephews were handling it!!

seems strange, i have not had a chance to consult with solic. but will update when i find out more.

what body/company pays out if someone shows up with deeds, surely it does not seem like a good situation for the insurer?

ive had quite a few painkillers, difiene, morph, tramadol, and a couple paracet, so excuse my stupidity, im prob so off the mark.

anyway thanks again carmel :0
 
Danny D said:
my girlfriend then told that the auctioneer said to her the old man has the deeds but couldnt get them of him and his nephews were handling it!!
Click to expand...

This doesn't sound at all right, particularly based on the details you posted yesterday.
 
Missing title deeds issue

Hi there
I have a good new update - we found out today that the insurance company today agreed to add the PRA to the insurance bond, so it looks like the sale can go ahead.

C
 
Hi Carmel

I am very interested in this issue also. I am in the exact same position as you and I am finding it difficult for the insurance company to indemnify the PRA. Can you disclose which insurance company allowed ye to assign the PRA to the bond, it would be much appreciated.

Thank you
 
That's great news Carmel and thank you for coming back to us.

Mods - not sure if there is a thread on legalities of house purchase but it might be an idea to add in a link to this PRA/missing house deeds/insurance bonds.
 
Missing title deeds

Hi Primrose
Would prefer not to mention company names - if you pm me I can give you the information.
 
Thanks Carmel. I understand that you dont want to mention the company name.

It appears that I dont have priveledges yet to pm you. I tried to do it dont quite understand it.

Do I need to have a certain amount of posts in order to do this? Anyone know?
 
Hi Carmel,

Just to give you an update, I closed on my house last week, the insurance company agreed to assign the bond to PRA, so all sorted now im delighted.

My solicitor had to get copies of the reconstructed deeds and new cert of compliance including copies of original planning permission from the vendors solicitors, there was alot of paper work involved in it.

I think the problem has only coming to light in recent months as now all unregistered title (registery of deeds title) needs to go for first registration in the land registry (online system) when the property changes hands, previously the property remained unregistered and the new purchaser had the bond to cover themselves should a claim arise.

Once you go for first registration of an unregistered title it can take circa 2-3 years for the title to be fully approved by the land registry system, however once it is approved on their system, a new online record/folio is opened for the property and you will no longer need to refer to the original deeds.
The title is then guaranteed by the state which is bound to indemnify any person who suffers loss through a mistake made by the Land Registry.
A purchaser can, therefore, accept the folio as evidence of title without having to read the relevant deeds. This is why the PRA requires the bond to be assigned to them.

I can see this being an common problem over the next few years given the amount of lost/missing deeds, were the deeds are unregistered (registery of deeds).

Hope the above is of some help to you, I wont name the insurance company here, but will do on PM.

MissyA
 
Insurance bond assignment for missing title deeds

Hi MissyA

Thanks for your reply. Yes, we have also had a break through with the insurance company agreeing to assign the bond to the PRA and the State. We got a closing date this week, so are thrilled!
C
 
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