Marriage equality referendum - "rights" to kids etc.

I saw this picture and think its a very appropriate point for this discussion.

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The Fact that you cant sell your daughter for three goats and a cow means we have already redefined marriage!

Not making light of this point but Marriage has already been redefined so many times in our lifetime. Women are no longer automatically domiciled where their (ex/estranged) husband resides, women can continue to work post marriage, women can apply for loans without their husbands permission, marital rape is now a crime, black can marry white etc..

Why are people scared that allowing two men to marry, or two women to marry will disrupt their existing marriage? If your marriage is strong - then the world wont change for you. If your marriage is not strong and falls apart - I dont think its anything to do with this possible change in law. You need to look to other factors.

What we are doing is creating an equality in law.
 
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I saw this picture and think its a very appropriate point for this discussion.

fImnb.jpg


The Fact that you cant sell your daughter for three goats and a cow means we have already redefined marriage!

Not making light of this point but Marriage has already been redefined so many times in our lifetime. Women are no longer automatically domiciled where their (ex/estranged) husband resides, women can continue to work post marriage, women can apply for loans without their husbands permission, marital rape is now a crime, black can marry white etc..

Why are people scared that allowing two men to marry, or two women to marry will disrupt their existing marriage? If your marriage is strong - then the world wont change for you. If your marriage is not strong and falls apart - I dont think its anything to do with this possible change in law. You need to look to other factors.

What we are doing is creating an equality in law.

Forgive me, but I do not see how changes within how women were unfairly treated in Marriage actually creates a redefined marriage.

I do see how defining marriage of Black men to White women does redefine the (norm) of marriage, indeed that is the best example I have seen so far to vote yes on an equality basis.

I still have the notion ,that marriage is male and female.Therefore I just can,t readily place change into an equality pot?
I have a nagging doubt that Gays/Lesbians have a hang up over Marriage.
In my, maybe narrow view, { long live difference} .

Vanilla , the Gods I spoke of was our politicians, they have form, in that if they don,t like the way we vote on a referendum , they call it again in a couple of years.
In this referendum , I am inclined to vote yes but I do not want it being carried with a rump of no voters feeling they were bumped into a change by populism , better to have discussions like this.
Lets get it right and with maximum consensus. I think the no side are afraid of being branded Homophobic ,so in general the no vote is silent and probably ill informed.
I do not want Referendum carried with a sullen no vote!

Again , just some quick thoughts.
 
Forgive me, but I do not see how changes within how women were unfairly treated in Marriage actually creates a redefined marriage.

The laws were changed to redefine marriage. A single woman was allowed work, was allowed get a loan, was allowed live where she chose to live. The legal definition of marriage pre-these changes prevented a married woman from doing so. In more enlightened decades, the law was changed to allow a married woman to have self-determination. Do you not think that those changes in law redefined the LEGAL entity that is marriage?

I have a nagging doubt that Gays/Lesbians have a hang up over Marriage.

Oh totally! Absolutely agree! As a member of the gay/lesbian brigade (well gay more so - i have never had much lesbian tendencies!) - I do have a hang up on it. I am a legal member of this state, I pay my taxes (way more than many people do - different story), yet the law prevents me from being fully equal in my country of birth. This is the last element of legal discrimination that exists that causes me to be treated differently than you.

I have no interest in destroying your marriage, I have no interest in banning marriage. What I have an interest in is the ability to be equal in law to you - based on something that I had no decision in. I was born Gay - I have as much of an ability to feign attraction to members of the opposite sex as you do to members of the same sex. And unlike you (I'm presuming) - I at least tried living that way.

So yes - I have a hang up over marriage.
 
The laws were changed to redefine marriage. A single woman was allowed work, was allowed get a loan, was allowed live where she chose to live. The legal definition of marriage pre-these changes prevented a married woman from doing so. In more enlightened decades, the law was changed to allow a married woman to have self-determination. Do you not think that those changes in law redefined the LEGAL entity that is marriage?



Oh totally! Absolutely agree! As a member of the gay/lesbian brigade (well gay more so - i have never had much lesbian tendencies!) - I do have a hang up on it. I am a legal member of this state, I pay my taxes (way more than many people do - different story), yet the law prevents me from being fully equal in my country of birth. This is the last element of legal discrimination that exists that causes me to be treated differently than you.

I have no interest in destroying your marriage, I have no interest in banning marriage. What I have an interest in is the ability to be equal in law to you - based on something that I had no decision in. I was born Gay - I have as much of an ability to feign attraction to members of the opposite sex as you do to members of the same sex. And unlike you (I'm presuming) - I at least tried living that way.

So yes - I have a hang up over marriage.
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Sol 28,

Yup you are right by your implication , I am a die-hard hetrosexual !
I think at this stage you are beating me 2 to 0 and its only half time!

As you might have gathered I ain,t in the discrimination business and would not wish to give a hoot about someones sexuality.
If a NO vote means I am treating someone unequally because they are Gay , then the answer is YES.

Ps. Still amazed how the NO voters are too silent for there to be a reasoned debate.
Is it they are afraid to be labelled bigots or just don,t rate the issue.
Think about this. Most people are not Gay so it is hard for them to get (het) up over this referendum.
 
in general the no vote is silent and probably ill informed.
I think you're half right there. There is no profit in voicing support for a No vote. I'd expect a sizable No on the day from many who are otherwise generally disinterested in the sexual preferences of others . . but when pushed will decide that marriage is a gendered institution worth preserving as such and that the cry of inequality is hollow in that civil partnership is the same-sex equivalent. Some will have genuine concerns that beyond a Yes a quota of adoptive children will be denied either a mother or a father, all else being equal, for the sake of modernity and supposed equality.
What I have an interest in is the ability to be equal in law to you
You mightn't like it or may view it as semantics but you are equal in law. The law says, with various restrictions, that an individual can marry someone of the opposite sex or can enter a civil partnership with someone of the same sex; this is the same for all. Your individual rights are the same as mine. With a Yes we will be straying from equality for individuals, which is what we should have, to equality of relationships, which is a misstep for the State.
 
As you might have gathered I ain,t in the discrimination business and would not wish to give a hoot about someones sexuality.

I appreciate that - and I would hope that these debates can stay reasoned. However there has been precedence in these debates of mud slinging from both sides. I hope we would not get into that.
There is also precedence of the oppressed calling foul of the oppressors - and the oppressors do not like that. This is going to occur each and every time a debate surfaces where one group is more powerful and has more rights than a smaller less powerful group.

Still amazed how the NO voters are too silent for there to be a reasoned debate.
I am also surprised that within the AAM community I seem to be the only openly gay person in this discussion. Therefore you are all debating whether to treat me equally in law. I am the only person truly affected in this thread.

I'd expect a sizable No on the day from many who are otherwise generally disinterested in the sexual preferences of others . . but when pushed will decide that marriage is a gendered institution worth preserving...
Unfortunately I also believe that this will happen - as people dont like change. And that the power of the churches will mobilise a lot of No voters. Yes voters may see this as a fundamental human right and may not actually vote as they are convinced it will occur anyway without their vote.

the cry of inequality is hollow in that civil partnership is the same-sex equivalent.
Michalem: The thing is - Civil Parnership is not the same sex equivalent. It is not equal in law to marriage (see [broken link removed]for more information). It is a lesser right. It also allowed inequality to be written into law - as only a same sex couple cannot enter into civil partnership - You are not able to enter a civil partnership as a straight couple. In Britain when it was introduced - Men and Women could choose a civil partnership.

While people of my sexuality are being told we are different, we are less, we are not equal, then the culture of bullying of gay people is sanctioned. Suicide rates are higher in gay/lesbian youth than amongst their straight counterparts.
We never read or see same sex couples in books or stories when growing up. All under the banner of 'What will we tell the Children'. Children are not inherently afraid of difference - children learn fear of difference from their parents and community.
 
And that the power of the churches will mobilise a lot of No voters. Yes voters may see this as a fundamental human right and may not actually vote as they are convinced it will occur anyway without their vote.
I'm dubious about your first comment above and the second is less credible again.
Civil Parnership is not the same sex equivalent. It is not equal in law to marriage. It is a lesser right. It also allowed inequality to be written into law - as only a same sex couple cannot enter into civil partnership - You are not able to enter a civil partnership as a straight couple.
That's not a problem with the gendered institution of marriage but rather a problem with the Irish implementation of civil partnership (Irish governments never seem to get anything quite right) which could be remedied . . civil partnership should be non-gendered. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are not the same, the result of the referendum will not change this, perhaps it is you who fears difference. The vast majority of people are disinterested, if not uninterested, in the sexuality of others.
 
Homosexuality and heterosexuality are not the same, the result of the referendum will not change this, perhaps it is you who fears difference.

Is this the same argument that Senator Ronan Mullen is using that he is actually more in favour of equality than the yes voters. (TheJournal.ie Interview).

Homosexuality is not the same as heterosexuality - you are totally right there. But then man is not the same as woman, black is not the same as white, asian is not the same as latino. However - each should be afforded the same rights and opportunities. That's the basis of equality.

Michaelm; I have declared my interest in this referendum - i am directly affected by its result - if, as has been said in this discussion so far, that most people are totally disinterested in this amendment - why are you so vehemently opposed. How will it affect your life?
 
The debate moves on.

I had Sol,s Yes Team . 2 nil up at half-time .
Michaelm,s comments now mean its Yes 2 , No 1.

I still need converting to either side, as I do not like indecision.
 
Look, Sol28, I'm not vehemently opposed, just opposed. I view it as a folly, a pretence and a waste of time and money (as is the other referendum); I view marriage as a gendered institution and any change to this would be a sham. For me, and I suspect most No voters, there is no inequality, just difference. If civil partnership needs to be tweaked then it should be. There's little point going round in circles which the same arguments, you either view it as an equality issue or you don't . . which is probably why there isn't much debate (despite Gerry champing at the bit for such).
 
Look, Sol28, I'm not vehemently opposed, just opposed. I view it as a folly, a pretence and a waste of time and money (as is the other referendum); I view marriage as a gendered institution and any change to this would be a sham. For me, and I suspect most No voters, there is no inequality, just difference. If civil partnership needs to be tweaked then it should be. There's little point going round in circles which the same arguments, you either view it as an equality issue or you don't . . which is probably why there isn't much debate (despite Gerry champing at the bit for such).
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Michaelm ,

He might have hit the crux of my indecision.
I got married into a clearly defined gendered institution.
I still have doubts, that should the vote be to not change that definition, that that no vote will in any real sense ,impede or in any way harm same-sex loving couples.

Dear me ,
It,s now Yes-side 2 , No-side 1 , but the no side have a free kick in a dangerous position!
 
I think its important to go back to first principles and note that marriage is first and foremost a 'contract'. And one of the principles of contract is that because contracts are voluntary agreements, if the two parties wish to terminate the contract, they have the option to do so or to create a new contract. However there are restrictions on this if third parties are involved, and I think it is for this reason that traditionally marriage is considered to be a very restrictive (difficult to terminate) contract because it is assumed that there will be third parties (e.g children, grandchildren, in-laws, etc ) affected by the termination of the contract.

It is hard for me to see then, why the coming together of any two ( or even more) people for the purpose of mutual friendship etc. in a sterile relationship that would not normally produce third parties (children) would require a contract as legally binding as that of marriage unless there was an intention that third party issues (e.g children) would be involved.

For this reason then, I think there is some justification to the view that relationships that fall outside the traditional meaning of marriage need to be considered separately. I also think that some caution is necessary when it comes to the Irish constitution as changes can have unforeseen consequences. It is for these reasons then that I think I will vote 'no' to any tampering with the Irish constitution on this matter.
 
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Sounds like a convoluted way of trying to justify your view to me. Should a heterosexual couple who know they are infertile and do not want to adopt be denied the right to marry, then?

Can't have kids? Won't have kids? No marriage for you then.

I'm not even going to point out that gay couples can also have children as that is obvious.
 
Sounds like a convoluted way of trying to justify your view to me. Should a heterosexual couple who know they are infertile and do not want to adopt be denied the right to marry, then?

Can't have kids? Won't have kids? No marriage for you then.

I'm not even going to point out that gay couples can also have children as that is obvious.

I don't think Ger is pointing out that there should be no marriage for hetrosexual couples who cannot father/mother their own children.

If you think different you would be no more inclusive than your ordinary Joe-Soap-Homophobic. This referendum is being voted by many who (a) Cannot understand homosexuality or (b) Cannot accept homosexuality (c) Cannot accept that homosexual couples should rear children.

The mindset of the whole country regarding homosexuality needs to be changed and it is changing albeit slowly. The referendum will be carried if the vote is tomorrow. But, there is a long way to go. The subject is being hacked to death in the media. In my opinion, the only danger to the carrying of the referendum is Oversell. Oversell should not be underestimated and could well lead to the referendum falling. I have heard many complaining that they cannot listen to the radio, watch the television, read the newspapers etc without Gay Marriage being argued at length. The Gay Community needs the Hetrosexual Community and vice versa. Whether we like it or not we all share the country together.

So Vanilla, with respect, Ger is entitled to his/her views and so are you.
 
I think its important to go back to first principles and note that marriage is first and foremost a 'contract'. And one of the principles of contract is that because contracts are voluntary agreements, if the two parties wish to terminate the contract, they have the option to do so or to create a new contract. However there are restrictions on this if third parties are involved, and I think it is for this reason that traditionally marriage is considered to be a very restrictive (difficult to terminate) contract because it is assumed that there will be third parties (e.g children, grandchildren, in-laws, etc ) affected by the termination of the contract

It is hard for me to see then, why the coming together of any two ( or even more) people for the purpose of mutual friendship etc. in a sterile relationship that would not normally produce third parties (children) would require a contract as legally binding as that of marriage unless there was an intention that third party issues (e.g children) would be involved.

Traditionally it is a contract, hence why parents would get together and discuss who their children would marry, irrespective of who the child wanted to marry or was even at an age where it thought about marriage, and a dowry would change hands. However, traditional marriage ended a long time ago as did the notion of a contract, at least as a social concept. It would be difficult to argue that for anything but a very small minority marriage is a commitment between two people to spend the rest of their lives together.

The issue of sterility and having children is too easily dismissed as sterility is not restricted to homosexual relationships. If naturally having children is a condition of marriage then I have several hetrosexual friends who would need to have their marriage annulled. The problem is that as a civilisation we have changed marriage several times to the point we are at now where it is a legally binding commitment in love and monogomy, at least I hope people do not propose by saying,

"Dear significant other, I would like to suggest a voluntary 'contract' where, if we, the two parties, wish to terminate the contract, we have the option to do so or to create a new contract."

As you categorically state it is a voluntary agreement. However, I reject the notion of going back to "first principles" as we can't, we can't go back to the prehistoric notion of marriage as civilisation developed. We've tried and we still have no real answer for human monogomy. We've no accurate record until the 12th century of what marriage meant. And even if we take that definition, well then we can also have arranged marriage, child marriage and until very recently in our culture legitimate domestic abuse within a marriage (as in marriage defined where the female is subservant). The first principles argument also has no place, because we cherry pick which bit of the first principles we wish to use in an argument.

The concept and definition of marriage has changed. Thankfully it is now a voluntary agreement between two people who wish (at least at that point in time) to commit to a relationship together for the rest of their lives. There is nothing at all that should or could exclude same a sex marriage couple in this committment. Nothing. Notions of what you believe to be traditional or "first principles" and notions of sterility are not reasonable arguments against why a same sex couple cannot have the same recognition by the state of their commitment.

This referundum isn't seeking to disolve the entire notion of marriage, just permit the use of that term for all who wish, just to allow anyone who wishes to make that committment have the same standing in the eyes of the state and the same rights. It has no effect or impact on all those who are currently married. It doesn't weaken their marriage or commitment, it will just make more people in the state happy and equal.
 
It has no effect or impact on all those who are currently married. It doesn't weaken their marriage or commitment, it will just make more people in the state happy and equal.

Its amazing how many people forget the simple point made above by Latrade.

This referendum will have no impact on the majority of the population. For a minority of the population it will finally mean that in the eyes of the law we are equal. We will have the same right to marry (in law) the partner that we love and wish to spend the remainder of our lives together - in
sickness and in health.

If you think otherwise its because you believe that I am not equal to you. Whatever you're reasoning for that belief - its still the same outcome - you believe you have more rights than me.
 
I also think that some caution is necessary when it comes to the Irish constitution as changes can have unforeseen consequences.

I think this is such a cop out - Because we don't know know what might happen - lets not do anything. Mankind would never have progressed if this was the overriding principle of all people.

I agree with Vanilla - it sounds like you are trying to make excuses for why you are voting No. If you are voting no because you believe I am different than you - than why not just state that fact. I would respect your honesty more.
 
What strikes me in this debate is that the whole 'civil partnership' idea was a complete waste of time and money, it should just have been 'civil marriage' in the first place and let everyone get on with their lives.
 
What strikes me in this debate is that the whole 'civil partnership' idea was a complete waste of time and money, it should just have been 'civil marriage' in the first place and let everyone get on with their lives.

Civil Partnership was a step forward. All civil partnership did was enable the wider community to get their heads around loving parternerships.
It was hotly debated in the LGBT world and caused many arguments between groups.

Some saw it as a step forward - others saw it as a half hearted measure - that actually wrote discrimination into law. A same sex couple could not marry, a mixed sex couple could not civil partner (such an awkward phrase). It is also different than marriage and has many different (ie lesser) rights than marriage.

It does cloud this debate as many people think its the same as marriage (in law).
 
A few things are becoming clearer.

So I will state the obvious;

1. Up to now Marriage is man & woman ie Marriage is clearly understood to be gender sourced.

2. If carried, Marriage will no longer be gender sourced.
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Questions.

Does that effect existing marriages ; obviously not, since, what is being taken from Marriage is its gender linkage on future unions not on EXISTING marriages.
Is that change to make Marriage a non gender base , an (equality ) issue?
Or is it more an attempt to redefine what Marriage is?

On the Yes side I hear the heartfelt wish to have Marriage Redefined.Is that a good reason to vote YES?
On the No side I do not hear any compelling reason to vote No.

If you believe Marriage is Man & Woman , you vote NO.
If you believe Marriage is to be non gender specific you vote YES.
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I think all future unions twix couples should just be civil unions that encompass the legal safeguards we have in Marriage.That would be tidier.
So If future couples wish to call their Union ,Marriage then grand.
 
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