Loans that we cannot repay

Hi Cash King - would you believe I actually emailed Friel Stafford yesterday morning and I got an immediate response back from them attached to the email being a Letter of Engagement and a questionnaire. They advised me that to avail of their services 'initially' that it would cost €605 incl VAT. But I plan on phoning their advice line tomorrow morning to see what they advise.

The issue that we both have in the 'bankruptcy' route is that he is on a register forever. Also, from my research on this, in particular courts.ie, it states that one when doing certain financial transactions, has to disclose the bankruptcy. This tells me that say for example my husband managed to get a decent job in say 10 years time, they would take his salary. Or say he was looking for a car loan for 5k, he would have to disclose that he was bankrupt in the past - am I being cynical again here, but would you think that a bank would loan him the money? Maybe, but more than likely with a massive interest rate attached to it.

I don't know to be honest. As I said, the only real issue we have is him permanently on the record for life, possibility of him never being able to obtain credit etc, etc.

Seems to me that our options are :

MABS Route - paying for the rest of our lives, with possible increases of payments. Possibly me being held liable then for those debts as I would be the one paying it.

UK Bankrupt Route - Done quickly. 6 years credit rating affected, but on the register forever and moving (either him or all of us the UK)

Irish Bankrupt Route - Long painful process. 12 years credit rating affected, and again on the register forever.

Or - tell the banks he has no money. Provide a statement of means. Goes to court. He shows/tells them the facts of how it is. Banks hound for years until the 6 years is up. I don't know if we CAN put up with the calls and letters etc, etc and I'm sure it's going to get worse, but by putting up with it, means that he/we get to stay at home and he is not put on a register for life. We'll have 6 years of hell, but surely I'm thinking that might be easier on us to take than him NEVER being able to get any credit/work again and manage to make some money for himself.

Otherwise than that, it's abscond, but that is not on our list.

There is an awful lot to take in with this. It is an awful hard and difficult decision to make.

Thank you again Cash King for all your help and advice. I really am very grateful.
 
cash king said:
PS - dont think "surrendering the Cork house " will work. the bank will just sell it and say, "and where is the rest?". Even if they said they agreed to it they could change their mind and come back?

Not so with bankruptcy. You have certainty.

In America its different, you can post the keys back, but here you have to come up with the money or go bankrupt.
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Sorry Cash King - re your comment above - if we did as I say and contact the institutions and advise them of our situation, would you know, could the bank still after the 6 years are up, come after us for any monies outstanding? In particular, in relation to my husbands property?

Thanks again, and I'm sorry for all the questions, but you seem to have very good knowledge about these kinds of things...

Thanks
 
Sorry I am not really sure what mean you by "6 years" - I thought you meant that you thought Irish bankruptcy might only last 6 years followed by a lifetime on the "register" - but now I think you mean something else? - do you mean that you think that if he stops paying they have 6 years in which to sue for the money? by all means check with Friel Stafford's helpline.

But basically if he is NOT declared bankrupt, then he is not bankrupt - the money is still due and if the bank wait a while just piling up the interest+penalties I dont think the debt goes away. The only way I can think of to make the debt disappear for once and for all (without actually paying, and without him dying and his life insurance paying off on the house mortgage) is (1)to go bankrupt and get discharged which will take 12 years max in normal circumstances. (yes he is then on "the register") OR (2) to get a "scheme of arrangement" (see below).

Remember - any of your creditors can THEMSELVES take an action to have your husband declared bankrupt (in Ireland) if they think it will scare you into paying up whatever cash you have/they want to "make an example" to other debtors. I have no idea of how likely this is. You cant really assume that this wont happen, although it would mean they had to pay the legal fees?

Would end up the same and save you the 650 if you say "fine, we dont resist your application"?

There isnt any way out of his/your problem without some pain somewhere - SOMETHING has to give. Bankruptcy is not painless. All I am saying is that SOMETIMES it is the least painful thing to do.

Its for you to decide if you can survive years of phone calls and your wages paying off his debts. But dont kid yourselves, decide now if you can hack it or not - eg if you crack after 2 years of trying to pay it off, then those 2 years and the money paid in those 2 years will be wasted?

If you cant just go on paying the debts without excruciating pain then I would say your best bet is to try to push through some sort of "scheme of arrangement". (this is just the opinion of a well-meaning stranger who has heard your story). The worst that will happen is that it wont work and you will be in bankruptcy after all if you really dont have the money.

Basically this means ringing the banks/"getting them in a room" and saying that YOU the wife are the only source of money, that HE has no assets other than the Cork house, and you are willing to pay say (33) cents on the euro, via such and such instalments. (if he ends up in a good job after all then that is a bonus) If they refuse then there has to be at least an implied threat of "then I will have to go bankrupt and look after the kids at home and you get zero" .
There may or may not be several different types - eg a "formal" vs "informal" one - you need to ask FS about this. You will know more than I!


If you are very convincing AND they arent out to make an example then they might go for it and you might save 66 cents on the euro and stay out of bankruptcy. this is basically what FS do for a living. Dont count on sympathy from the banks cos they dont have it, its jut a business.

Dont know what happens if they try to "come back " for the rest after all - FS will know how to tie that up and make it stick, I presume.

If even ONE creditor REFUSES to pay ball, then you either secretly pay THAT creditor in full or the whole deal falls apart. I dont think it is like in "examinership" where if the biggest creditor says ok, then the other creditors can be FORCED to take the "cram down" (it might be different in the UK)? But again, this is a question for FS, so ask them, I could be wrong about this!

You can probably do this yourselves without FS but you will be a little less likely to succeed, you will only get to do it once, without any practice beforehand.

Once the banks hear that your husband is "threatening" to go bankrupt/in danger of it they may back off or they may get more aggressive, thinking that there is SOMETHING still to be had and not wanting to be the patsy who accepted 33 cents meekly when SOMEONE got secretly paid in full by threatening to wreck everything. Sorry I cant call it, I dont know how they will take it.

If you threaten bankruptcy, and they say "no deal" but dont themselves try to have him declared bankrupt, you are in a strange limbo standoff indeed, and there is probably a lot of it going around. I dont know what happens then. Again, maybe the free call to FS will help.

If FS are useless on the "free" line, then you havent lost anything anyway.

Call FS first, ask maybe ten Qs including how one goes about such a scheme, is there any legalese tht must be on each email/letter, are there different types of "arrangement", and is ther any pitfall in making it stick legally (under contract law, the Q might be what new consideraton was provided, they were already entitled to all the money anyway in the 1st place etc).

Then you either hire someone like FS (no I dont know what they charge or how they make sure they get paid) or do it yourself and go for the "arrangement", if it works then great; if it doesnt then you are back at bankruptcy or else cheap pasta+phone calls while you pay his debts and hope he gets the chance to make it up to you in future.
 
PS - one other thing -

It is important that your husband understands that this is not a case of you and some stranger on the internet trying to trick him into going bankrupt.

It is a Q of understanding the true severity of the situation and playing the remaining cards in your hand as well as possible.

If the house is on fire, its on fire and there is no point hoping the fire will go out by going back to bed.

If MAY be that his bankruptcy is inevitable. If so, best to get through it as painlessly and quickly as possible. Yes being on "the register" sucks but if it is inevitable then it is inevitable.

If he CANT get a good job quickly...IS IT INEVITABLE?
 
cash king said:
Sorry I am not really sure what mean you by "6 years" - I thought you meant that you thought Irish bankruptcy might only last 6 years followed by a lifetime on the "register" - but now I think you mean something else? - do you mean that you think that if he stops paying they have 6 years in which to sue for the money? by all means check with Friel Stafford's helpline.
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Hi there,

Yes, that's what I meant - that would they have 6 years to chase for the monies. Like, how when you don't pay your credit card bill, the institution will put your name on the ICB and it's held there for 6 years - I just wondered would it be something similiar regarding a property. But I will check with FS tomorrow.

Good point re them taking action against him - but I would have thought that if that was the case - then they would obviously think that he has money squirreled away in a box under the bed or something, which he doesn't! So the judge would straight away see that he has nothing so it wouldn't be a case of that he is choosing not to pay, but a case where he is unable to pay. If they force his hand into bankruptcy, so be it. We will live with that if we have to. But I would have thought that a judge would see his statements of means and deduce that he just can't pay. I'm seeing what you mean though (sorry, maybe I'm a bit slow), therefore if the judge does see that, the judge will declare him to be bankrupt anyway, which means he will go on the register for life anyway, right?

What exactly happens when people actually go to court who can't pay their loans? Are they solely declared bankrupt, and all that comes with that for the rest of their lives and that's that? The only other way out of it is by 'arrangement' which he can't do? If that's the case, he has no choice but to either :

(a) Declare himself bankrupt from either UK/Ireland
(b) Get them to do it for him

This is getting more and more depressing.

Thanks CK again for all the help - as I said I really do appreciate it.
 
cash king said:
PS - one other thing -

It is important that your husband understands that this is not a case of you and some stranger on the internet trying to trick him into going bankrupt.

It is a Q of understanding the true severity of the situation and playing the remaining cards in your hand as well as possible.

If the house is on fire, its on fire and there is no point hoping the fire will go out by going back to bed.

If MAY be that his bankruptcy is inevitable. If so, best to get through it as painlessly and quickly as possible. Yes being on "the register" sucks but if it is inevitable then it is inevitable.

If he CANT get a good job quickly...IS IT INEVITABLE?
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Yes CK - I'm really, really afraid that it is starting to look that way. Really does look like the UK is the easiest solution - at least he'd have a bloo*y chance of getting a 5k car loan if he needed it in 10 years time.

Feel absolutely deflated here now.
 
First things first - dont get completely deflated. you are both alive, both healthy enough to genuinely seek work/go to work and three kids you obviously love and want to bring up as best possible.

Second thing - IF they agree to an "arrangement" that you can handle then the bankruptcy is not inevitable. But it looks like the only way out so it has to be risked? Whether you use FS or not. Basically the same thing that your husband was saying, "need to go and talk to the banks again"...

...but DONT use the line, "Ah come on lads we have known each other for years, please give me a break" (that will get you nowhere, the response is "sorry the lads from Dublin are watching this one, cant help you") but instead YOU get involved as well and RUTHLESSLY hammer home the line that you are the one paying it off at present, you have not guaranteed anything, the family home is a rental so dont bother threatening to evict you, that there is no way you will/can pay the lot, there is no money to be squeezed out of your extended family, and they get ZIP if he goes bankrupt - they can have (say) half or they can have zero, their choice (and then you hope they blink - but know in advance what is the least "haircut" they can offer that you can live with). If you feel awkward doing this, just remind yourselves you are in a corner and you are doing this for your childrens' future. Bottle the feeling and let it out at the appropriate moment.

Third - no one says he can never work again. Become a saver not a spender? Bankruptcy would mean that people will PROBABLY find out he was once bankrupt before getting a loan if they check. He may have to get a "bankroll" together or provide some security of some sort - eg if he DOES invent the next sliced pan and needs a wedge to start a business that you believe in, you COULD get a loan eg by signing a personal guarantee yourself (eg if things recover a bit and equity builds up in the Swords apt over the years?) or if, eg, you were thinking of (say) spending 5K per year of your salary on his debts a la MABS advice - well, if you cut the need to spend the 5K all out with the bankruptcy, then save the 5K as cash and keep everything else to a minimum - in three years you would have say 15K in cash - use THIS instead of borrowing a new loan? And Perhaps a lender might provide a loan if he saw you were putting in your own savings, not just borrowing 100% from them?

I said previously that for the next while the last thing the two of you need is new debt, and this is what I was trying to say.

If you are just about able to live on just YOUR salary at present, then a UK bankruptcy would let him earn and KEEP his own salary after 12 months without the banks interfering? Keep the lifestyle the same and save the LOT of his new income. There is another wedge on the horizon in a few years.

Remember - banks are much less likely to give out loans anyway for the next few years/longer - even if he avoided bankruptcy, there are going to be much harder Qs asked "what are your outgoings at present?" and the existing debts will still shoot you down anyway.

I RECKON THAT IF YOU COULD LIVE WITHOUT THE NEED FOR NEW DEBT THE STING OF THE BANKRUPTCY WILL BE GONE IN 12 MONTHS IF YOU DO IT IN THE UK - AND HIS CRIPPLING DEBTS WILL ALL BE IN THE PAST.

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As regards debts "disappearing" over time - this is unlikely, but I think I know what you are getting at -

eg in criminal law in some countries there is a Stature of Limitations - basically some non-serious crimes cant be prosecuted after a certain amount of time.

In Ireland we have a law that people must sue within a limited time of suffering an injury, and there is a time limit after which squatters on a piece of land gain rights to the land.

So IF your husband stops paying and the banks make nasty phone calls but dont DO anything, do the debts disappear? Unlikely to happen? dont know. but ask FS when you phone them.
 
Ok - I phoned Friel Stafford's helpline. Prior to this we spoke some more. My husband has decided to come up with an 'arrangement' to the bank, this being they get anywhere between 25-50% of his property, but they would have to agree to a writedown of his personal debts (say anywhere between 50-60% - I haven't done the figures up fully yet) and will also have to agree to the rental income on the property servicing all the loans. This is his proposition.

I had the following questions for FS :

Q. House in neg equity - can the institutions issue proceedings against you even if there is no equity in the property?
A. Yes, they can.

Q. If going to declare bankrupty in either the UK or Ireland, realistically, what are the chances of him obtaining credit ever again?
A. Very unlikely in Ireland, but can in the UK after 12 months.Will still be difficult, but better in the UK than Ireland.

Q. If you provided an arrangement whereby the bank get say 25-50% of the property, what is the likelihood of them accepting that, along with a writedown of debts and also agreeing to the rental income servicing the loans?
A. Has been done, but not sure on the part of them agreeing to the rental income servicing the loans. Depends on the person you are dealing with and on the day.

Q. What if the bank can't find you?
A. They have stepped up their searches for people, especially in the last year in Ireland. FS had one gentleman about 18 months ago, who owned 6 properties. He eventually absconded, is living abroad currently and has apparently been home twice on visits. The bank is still looking for him. They have not found him yet.

Q. What is the likelihood of the banks issuing proceedings again you? If you are not present, can you be declared bankrupt?
A. Possible, depends on the person you get and on the day. If you are not present, you can be declared bankrupt.

Q. If declared bankrupt in Ireland, later on if you are in employment, can they take their slice?
A. Yes, they can. But after 12 months in the UK, they can't.

Q. If my husband stops paying the debts and doesn't do anything further, what are the chances of the debts 'disappearing' as such?
A. Unlikely.

FS gave me a good tip actually. They advised that if we were trying to come to an 'arrangement' with the bank - we would be much better off going directly to the branch manager and not through the head office. Never thought of that. My mother in law knows the branch manager so we are going to set up a meeting with him to discuss this idea. We have more or less agreed, that this is it. If this works, fine. If it doesn't we/him are going to the UK.
 
Good, sounds sensible. Cant see anything wrong with it as long as you watch out if they suddenly ask YOU to sign something at the last minute. If they say "no way", then at least you gave it an honest try, and good to hear that you DO have a decent-ish chance of future credit in the UK if things go absolutely nuclear.

Is only one bank? what about MBNA, any tips for getting them ALL into line? Just do the math and check carefully to see if any haircut works out or not on your spreadsheets - no point committing to lesser payments that are STILL too much. Careful if in return for the haircut, they look for YOU to sign anything, so keep your wits about you.

And this leaves husband free to look after the kids or not, depending on whether work turns up, whether in the UK or not?

I think if you present your case carefully and forcefully and hammer home your strong points rather than JUST asking for mercy, you have a good chance of a good deal.

Basically its more or less the position we saw before you rang FS, but good to know they didnt point out some enormous pitfall we had not seen. As they say and as I said previously, it all depends on the mood people are in on the day etc.

They may well blink!
 
Let's hope they do Cash King!

In a way I'm a bit relieved. We know what route we are taking now.

I'm thought about the cc with MBNA but the way I'm looking at it, he is more than likely on the ICB report now already and even if he came to an 'arrangement' with them his name would still show up there, and his credit is wrecked for definite for the next 6 years and I don't think my salary will cover everything at home + his BOI debts AND his 8k cc debt.

Now to do the figures. I think it's going to be more like 70-80% we need knocked off...

We have a friend coming to see us on Thursday to go over it all - he is an accountant in liquidations etc, etc, and he might have some more advice for us. He is going to put us in touch with a good solicitor as well so hopefully we just might be able to wade ourselves out of this....hopefully...

CK - thank you again for all your help - you really have been very good and have given our problem so much of your time, I can't thank you enough...
 
Just looking up on something you mentioned....the "6 years" you talk about I think is the 1957 statute of limitations....was a link to it on another thread...looked it over a bit...

basically saying that the right to collect on a mortgage is extinguished if no payments made for 6 years AND they dont sue before the 6 years are up...? at least that is what I think it was saying

Wont really help you when you think it through - so you are right not to bother with it - not unless they REALLY forget about you...which isnt likely....

if you stop paying and they finally sue him 5 years and 11 months later...their right is still not extinguished...once they get judgement etc they can THEN force him to become bankrupt...? would drag the bankruptcy sword of Damocles out for 6+12 = 18 years as far as I can see.....?

Dont know what happens if they cant physically find you to deliver the summons.....
 
I'm sorry for butting in here but I have been following this thread with interest. I wondered if you might like another point of view.

You might reconsider Irish bankruptcy for your husband. This would stop the outgoings for all of his debt payments and you would then be able to support your family on your salary. You would incur no childcare costs as he could continue to be resident and care for the children.

The downside is that the debt will stay with your husband for 12 years and his credit will be rubbish (though it's probably pretty savaged as it is anyway.) But there are two aspects to this: one, credit is what got you into this mess in the first place. Rather than looking at as "my husband won't even be able to get a 5K car loan in five years" it is possible to simply save the 5K over five years and buy outright.

In other words, I would worry far less about protecting credit you cannot afford to use anyway.

Point two, your debts are separate, and you yourself have good credit and a job here. When the economy recovers (and it will) you should be able to sell the property in your name, see a profit, and buy another property to live in with a mortgage in your name if that's a priority for your family. As a married couple you are in a much more resiliant position than many other families with fully joint debts.

Eventually your husband will go back to work. Deductions for the bankruptcy will be both reasonable and time limited. Things will ease. In the interim, you will know where you stand, the creditors will stop calling, your monthly outgoings will be manageable, and you will not be faced with financial demands you cannot meet despite your best efforts.

It is worth noting that we call it "declaring bankruptcy." It's simply a public statement of a financial fact. You are in fact already bankrupt - you are, aside from a small and legally allowed amount of savings, insolvent. Putting the paperwork behind that is not the worst outcome in the world, and is a choice with some positive points.

I apologise if I've misunderstood something, it just seemed to me that you were trying to avoid an outcome that maybe, is perhaps not really so bad given your situation.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you!
 
Havent posted on here in a long time but have read this thread with some interest. For the records I work for a Bank in an insolvency role; I deal with corporate clients but am familiar with the legislation around personal insolvency/bankruptcy etc. More relevantly I am familiar with the PRACTICALITIES of the bankruptcy process.

Some points
- I agree with Helle Belle above. At this point in time you should not even be considering borrowing in the future. Debt has caused you all this anguish and stress so you should be looking to put yourself into a position where you dont need to worry about monthly repayments any more.

- Bankruptcy is an extreme option, it will prevent you borrowing from any Bank in the future but I would imagine your local CU will still deal with you if you have a good record with them and build up a savings record over time.

- On a practical level if you apply for bankruptcy I would imagine the relief you will feel would be huge. No more calls from your creditors! You will then be dealing with the official assignee of the courts, their role is to deliver the best possible value for all your creditors. If there is no equity in your assets they wont waste much time on it. Over time they will sell the assets and your unsecured creditors can share what is left over if anything.

- You will be treated with respect by the courts. As outlined this is a legal process and is not a reflection on yourself as a person.

- **** MBNA. They are an unsecured lender, they charge you 15-20% for the borrowings on the basis of high risk high reward, when they get paid! Let them register their judgment if they wish; not sure if this will damage your credit rating (are you party to debt), if it does you may wish to deal with it.

- Dont know who advised you about UK bankruptcy, its a better system than we have but it will be very difficult for you to get it through as your 'centre of main interest' is in Ireland. I would find it hard to beleive this is a live option.

- When you go into bankruptcy in Ireland it will take YEARS to resolve!! Time is your friend in this instance. You will have an opportunity to deal with your issues and at any point if you repay the debts the bankruptcy will be discharged. The official assignee is swamped with work and your case looks to me like it will go to the bottom of the pile as there is little equity to be had!

If I were in your shoes I would seek to do the following; this may not be fully ethically or morally correct position to take
- Go to secured lenders and tell them you cannot deal with the issues any more. You are willing to voluntarily sell the property/let them sell the property on the basis that it is full and final settlement of the debt. Bring a sworn (by your Solr) statement of assets and liabilities with you incl statement of means. This should give them comfort that there is little to be had out of you and they may decide to go down this route and cut their losses without incurring legal fees etc down the line. Tell them you are going into bankruptcy if they dont accept it; they will not want this as the official assignee will have control of the asset and it wil lbe taken out of their hands for years.

- Go to unsecured lenders and tell them you are going to go bankrupt, offer them a small settlement (out of the 2.5 k ) in full and final settlement, they will not want you to go bankrupt at all becasue they will know they will never get a penny out of you if you do.

Good luck with your situation, hope it all works out.
 
Thanks CK, Hells Belle and dancarter,

I have returned to work, since last Friday so hence not being logged on.

Things have taken a different turn. BOI really had no interest in taking any percentage of my husbands house (I didn't really think they would anyway). But what they have agreed, for the moment, is to reduce his mortgage repayments to 500 per month (this includes the 30k top up, and the insurances). The income from the house per month is 565. I asked my husband to ask them about the 'difference'. I was advised by him (my husband) that the bank said that they would just as such let the arrears build up in another separate account, for him to pay back when he can.
I was waiting to hear about extra charges attached to the arrears, but didn't hear of anything, until a letter came in the door from BOI confirming the new arrangement. In this letter they outline that there will be charges attached to the arrears. Recently though, I have heard on the news that there is talk of the banks being told to stop these charges, but I don't believe anything has of yet been done about them.

Re the bankruptcy idea, the first one is Ireland. This is a no go - we can't afford to go bankrupt anyway! Hells Belle - you are completely correct, we are insolvent.

Re the other BOI debts - we are basically at a crossroads. I have not got the energy to keep discussing/fighting/debating the financial issue with my husband. He sees black, I see white. I have told him that if I can't reach a compromise with him, then I feel I have no option but to step back from it all, and let him deal with it. I have not got the strength to have the constant same endless discussions with him day in day out. I realise I have gone off on a tangent, re the other BOI debts - he is basically going to 'wait and see', as in speak to BOI to tell them that he has no money, is at home looking after the kids, while I am at work. He phoned them again today and left a message.

Re the MBNA cc - a letter arrived last week, stating that his account is to be written off and he is also going to be put on the defaulters list along with the ICB list.

We have agreed that if all comes to all and court is threatened, then we will go to the UK, but I think that he is still going to fight this - how, I don't know, as the outcome is inevitable, but I will help him where I can. I have not made any payments to any of his debts in the last month - he agrees with this. My salary is for the kids, the house etc, etc.

Apologies if I sound short, but I have a little boy crying/shouting at me.

CK - thank you again. You have a point - what if they can't find you??

Again, Hells Belle and dancarter, thank you too.
 
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coleman said:
Thanks CK, Hells Belle and dancarter,

I have returned to work, since last Friday so hence not being logged on.

Things have taken a different turn. BOI really had no interest in taking any percentage of my husbands house (I didn't really think they would anyway). But what they have agreed, for the moment, is to reduce his mortgage repayments to 500 per month (this includes the 30k top up, and the insurances). The income from the house per month is 565. I asked my husband to ask them about the 'difference'. I was advised by him (my husband) that the bank said that they would just as such let the arrears build up in another separate account, for him to pay back when he can.
I was waiting to hear about extra charges attached to the arrears, but didn't hear of anything, until a letter came in the door from BOI confirming the new arrangement. In this letter they outline that there will be charges attached to the arrears. Recently though, I have heard on the news that there is talk of the banks being told to stop these charges, but I don't believe anything has of yet been done about them.

Re the bankruptcy idea, the first one is Ireland. This is a no go - we can't afford to go bankrupt anyway! Hells Belle - you are completely correct, we are insolvent.

Re the other BOI debts - we are basically at a crossroads. I have not got the energy to keep discussing/fighting/debating the financial issue with my husband. He sees black, I see white. I have told him that if I can't reach a compromise with him, then I feel I have no option but to step back from it all, and let him deal with it. I have not got the strength to have the constant same endless discussions with him day in day out. I realise I have gone off on a tangent, re the other BOI debts - he is basically going to 'wait and see', as in speak to BOI to tell them that he has no money, is at home looking after the kids, while I am at work. He phoned them again today and left a message.

Re the MBNA cc - a letter arrived last week, stating that his account is to be written off and he is also going to be put on the defaulters list along with the ICB list.

We have agreed that if all comes to all and court is threatened, then we will go to the UK, but I think that he is still going to fight this - how, I don't know, as the outcome is inevitable, but I will help him where I can. I have not made any payments to any of his debts in the last month - he agrees with this. My salary is for the kids, the house etc, etc.

Apologies if I sound short, but I have a little boy crying/shouting at me.

CK - thank you again. You have a point - what if they can't find you??

Again, Hells Belle and dancarter, thank you too.
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Coleman I've been reading your posts with interest. Two tips for you:-

1. If you're going to the UK to declare bankruptcy, go as soon as you can, as the EU Regulation that forces member states to recognise cross border bankruptcies does not apply to pending lawsuits. So say that MBNA served you with a summons tomorrow, if you then declare yourself bankrupt in Britain, MBNA and the Irish Courts do not have to recognise that bankruptcy, and it will undoubtedly be registered as a judgment back here in Ireland. So act fast.
2. Do not attend any meeting with financial institutions face to face. There have been a number of incidents recently where people like yourself went in in good faith to banks thinking they were attending settlement talks only to have a Civil Bill thrown at them once they entered the premises.

Do everything in writing and by registered letter. Good luck to you both. S
 
At the end of the day it is he who is in debt and not you.

You cannot make him do anything, all you can do is not end up paying his debts with your own money. If you agree that your salary is not to be used to pay his debts I suppose that is progress, and you can dare them to make him bankrupt.

Yes he may indeed try to kick to touch, but this is what I meant when I said there was no point dragging it out if there is still no real chance of actually paying anything off. I cant say whether he will get to pay anything off or not, you will just have to judge that for yourselves.

Yes the level of debt MIGHT be going up with arrears etc and penalty charges. Cant know yet if the bank will write these off or not. If the amount of the debt keeps going up and up, how is that better than going bankrupt? I know, he is the one who has to answer that.

Dragging it out for say 3 years more and THEN going bankrupt or being forced to go bankrupt by the bank is just adding 3 more years to the duration of the problem? If the bank say that the balance is increasing but they wont bother suing for it yet they have the option to make him bankrupt at any time. Yes at least this way you save on the 650 + other expenses but he may go into limbo for untold years? The bank dont want to crystallise the loss, on the books everything is still hunky dory and the loan is "performing" - tells you how much faith we should have in the banks' figures but that is a whole other thread.

Interested to hear that MBNA are "writing it off" but I expect they will be back in a flash if they got a notion the money was there - this is where the Statue of Limitations will come in?

If your husband is listed as a defaulter it will probably mean no credit for him anytime soon anyway - not 100% sure about that.

I hope though with the lesser payments to bank and with no payments to MBNA things are more tolerable now?

PS - I wouldnt bank on them not being able to find you, that was only a what if scenario. If you go about your legit day to day life anywhere in the EU without wigs and changed names I reckon a PI can track you down in less than a month if he is put on the case
 
Thanks Shuttleworth and Cash King - problem is I believe that my husband just cannot seem to see the wood from the trees. I'm afraid of the outcome if we go his route, but no amount of explaining/fighting will move him. As I said, we are completely at a crossroads and I believe I know which is the best way for us to go, but he just cannot see it. I'm starting to think that I'm losing it and that he thinks that I'm trying to control him and that and maybe he is right. I just don't know anymore. I really do not know how much more of this I can take. I'm hitting a brick wall, with every single thing I say.
 
Alas you are now going into personal areas that have little to do with the facts of finances. Not really a lot anyone on this site can do then except offer good intentions.

Had said in an earlier post that a lot will come down to his attitude and what sort of man he is when faced with the facts, and does he accept taht what is best for the family the best way forwards. Most men instictively feel awkward and defensive when it is the woman who is bringing home the bacon. Maybe its earlier days yet.

But I think that as long as you yourself can keep a clear head, as long as you dont pay for his debts, and as long as he helps look after the kids for as long as he doesnt have a job, then you are doing something right?

If he wants to dare the bank to bankrupt him and until then keep hoping for a lucky break, then it might work out. Most likely scenario is the bank will put big pressure on him somethime in next couple of years and it will come to a head then. You wont be any worse off other than the dragging out of the whole thing, and at least he cant blame you for pressuring him, wondering what might have been.

Stay strong and stay sane and keep your own head above water and look after the kids.
 
Hi Coleman,

I have been following this thread with interest and I am amazed at your resilence in the face of the challenges you are facing. It is an extremely difficult time for you and your family and especially because your children are so little.

I would worry for your husband, he is very vulnerable, there are many tragedies occuring out there in the wider community. It is a horrendous and stressful thing for an individual to have the face the trauma of having huge bills coming through the door everyday and having no money to pay them with.

Take a step back and see what is most meaningful in your life, give him space, if need be contact one of the many 'helping agencies' to talk over your problems. Take care and be gentle on yourself.
 
Thanks CK and Marietta.

Marietta - I am worried about him. There is no doubt about that. Sometimes I look at him and wonder, is he ok? I think it's actually good for him to be at home with the kids, as they are such a handful that it's impossible to think for long periods of time. Also, the kids are great for both of us - we know that we just have to keep going, for their sakes, let alone ours. But as I said, I am very much worried about him.

You are correct CK - I was getting personal and really personal and finances don't mix. Sometimes, it just gets a bit too much for me and I have to say something to someone somewhere!

For the moment, for this week anyway, we will see what it brings us. I'm starting to think that he is kind of coming round to the UK idea, but time will tell. And yes, I cannot force his hand in this - I can only try to persuade him to what I believe is the right course of action. The decision is ultimately his. I'm hoping that he will be able to give me a definite answer to what we are doing by the end of this week.

Thank you for your replies.
 
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