Joint executors living in different parts of country. Should two resign for efficiency?

Discussion in 'Wills, inheritances and gifts' started by Prosper, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. Prosper

    Prosper Registered User

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    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2016
    Three queries regarding a Personal Probate Application following my fathers death.

    1. Three executors/beneficiaries (living in different part of Ireland) named in Will. One handling the application. Would it be handier for the other two to "Renounce" or if not agreeable to that then to "Reserve" their rights?
    2. Father paid Water Charges but one son is living in the house until probate is sorted. He has not paid Irish Water since fathers death. Could this cause a problem?
    3. Mother predeceased father. So on CA24 his status marked as "Widowed". Should we include mothers Death Cert with the CA24 to avoid any possible delays in the whole process?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2016
  2. Brendan Burgess

    Brendan Burgess Founder

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    How many times do you need all three executors to sign something? Rarely , I would imagine.

    I see no advantage at all in the other two resigning.

    Who suggested that it was a good idea?
     
  3. Prosper

    Prosper Registered User

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    A solicitor outside Dublin suggested it. However, today I had a look at the "Probate Handbook" (bear in mind, it's aimed at solicitors, not personal probate applicants) in a bookshop and it says:
    "For practical purposes, it is better for a non acting executor to reserve his rights rather than to renounce in that the reservation is merely referred to in the oath while a renunciation is an actual form that needs to be signed by the renouncing executor and marked as an exhibit in the oath by the applicant for the Grant and the Commissioner who is marking the Oath, Bond & Will"

    The following forms, I believe, need to be signed by each applicant executor.
    1. Revenue Affidavit Form CA24 (each executor can sign and have it witnessed by Commissioner/Solicitor separately. In other words they don't have to get together to do it)
    2. PA2 Form (Again they can do this separately)
    3. Form of Understanding (as above)
    Possibly the back of the original Will (this plus two certified copies are only needed at the interview/appointment stage) may need to be signed by all executors, I'm not sure. It's possible that all three executors do not need to attend the interview/appointment in the Probate Office. The person in the Probate Office this afternoon seemed unsure on this point - she said "maybe two would be ok".

    I'd like to know what is meant by "it is better for a non acting executor to reserve his rights rather than to renounce"

    Thanks for your input Brendan.
     
  4. putsch

    putsch Frequent Poster

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    Depending on the scale of the estate one executor is much more efficient than multiple executors as in many instances all will have to sign.......so for example if the deceased has 3 or 4 bank accounts/shares etc it could be a real pain. Definitely reserve rather than renounce.......otherwise if the executor died/became incapacitated during the process a whole new process would be required. However, if there are likely to be arguments among the executors or beneficiaries then at least one other executor is helpful. So "it depends" is the answer.
     
  5. Prosper

    Prosper Registered User

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    Thanks Putsch. The estate is simply a house, car, Post Office Savings Bonds, a bank current account (an executor account has been set up our three names) and Verizon/Vodafone shares which we'll donate to charity. I don't see any likelihood of arguments. So I've decided not to "Renounce" but would love to know what "Reserving" my rights means.
     
  6. Bronte

    Bronte Frequent Poster

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    For this I would suggest one executor is fine. Also you had a query about Irish water, you just contact them and get a certificate of discharge. I've just done so and it seems to be a fairly simple procedure. Has your solicitor not given you a list of things to do?
     
  7. Prosper

    Prosper Registered User

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    We'll contact Irish Water today, thanks. We were going the Personal Application route but we now believe that using a solicitor will get it done quicker. With the clouds on the horizon (Brexit, Trump, Italy, likely industrial unrest here) we're afraid house prices will tumble. The Probate Office are saying it's currently 26 weeks from receipt of application to appointment and we think that a solicitor will get things processed faster especially if they are also retained to sell the house. We've had a quote from a solicitor in the west where my brother lives and one in Dublin where I live (house is in Dublin) . We'll make final decision by tomorrow.
     
  8. Bronte

    Bronte Frequent Poster

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    I went with the personal application and I found it relatively simple.

    A solicitor outside of Dublin is generally cheaper. I've no idea why you think they are faster. We are not allowed talk about house prices, did supply suddenly increase and I thought they made it easier for FTB's only last week !

    There is no hurry with IW. And what about the brother in the house ! Send off the form today. I found the probate office very helpful and they corresponded with me no bother by email (I'm abroad - I just had to make one trip to see them, and it was all straightforward)
     
  9. Prosper

    Prosper Registered User

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    It's the 26 weeks wait for the appointment with the Probate Office that concerns us. Also, the fear is that after you submit the application you have to sit and wait for appointment and if they find something not right with your application then it's more or less back to GO. However, your comment about being able to email with them is very reassuring. I thought that once you submit your application you then must await the call for appointment from them with no opportunity to add or amend something on the CA24 form in the interim.

    Our stalling on the Personal Application came about when my brother out West went to a local solicitor to have them witness his signing of the completed CA24. He was then going to sent it to me for signing/witnessing and I was then going to send it to the third brother for him to do the same. This solicitor in the West put a number of doubts into my brothers head e.g. my father retired after working with no break in employment until he retired 47 years later. He also collected the state pension until he died aged 93 and we notified them on his death immediately. However, when my brother out West went to get the CA24 signed by nearby solicitor, this solicitor said to my brother something like "what if your father owed DSP some money back". My brother hadn't thought of that and neither had I because as far as I can see he was entitled to the OAP.

    This solicitor, who I add was not being pushy but was only trying to be helpful to him, then suggested/implied that if they acted for us they could get things done faster through the District Probate Office who would then deal with the Dublin Probate Office. Solicitor then suggested to him that it would be best if the other two brothers (myself included) "revoked their executorship". This also raised the issue in our minds that three "active" Executors could cause delays with a Personal Application????

    We had the necessary forms ready to go into Probate Office last week. CA24 (yet to be signed by each of us and witnessed), the PA2 and the Form of Understanding (both yet to be signed by the three of us). We also have the original death cert and copy of Will ready. So that's everything we need to get the process started. I'll talk to the brother out West again later today about going ahead with the personal application.
     
  10. dereko1969

    dereko1969 Frequent Poster

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    Sounds like the Solicitor whilst not being pushy was being very clever in putting doubts into your and your brothers minds to get the business. What will the solicitor do with DSP that you and your brothers cannot? Probate Office in Dublin and I would presume elsewhere have been very clear that having a solicitor does not expedite probate - that was the solicitors USP, not tenable any more.
     
  11. Prosper

    Prosper Registered User

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    Points taken. I think the main doubt that's been put into my mind now is - could the fact that there are three of us beneficiaries named as executors cause some problem/delay with a Personal Application. If it could then maybe two of us should renounce our rights as executors whether we proceed with a Personal Application or use a Solicitor? The very first question I had in the first post in this thread was - Would it be handier for the other two to "Renounce" or if not agreeable to that then to "Reserve" their rights? I don't know the difference between the two. The Probate Handbook says " "it is better for a non acting executor to reserve his rights rather than to renounce".
     
  12. twofor1

    twofor1 Frequent Poster

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    If you have been appointed as an executor appointed under a Will you are not bound to act as an executor. You have three options if you are appointed an executor in a will:

    1. Accept: accept the role as executor and administrator the estate.

    2. Reserve: reserve your rights to act as the executor. This means that you will not proceed as executor initially but that you can at a later stage get involved in administrating the estate and take out the Grant of Probate. This only applies where there is more that one executor appointed in a will. If you are the sole executor appointed under a will you cannot reserve your rights without applying for a court order.

    3. Renounce: you can renounce your right to act as executor. It is important to note here that if you renounce your rights you cannot at a later stage get involved in administrating the estate. In this situation if you are renouncing your rights you will sign a renunciation documents. You can only renounce if you haven’t intermeddled in the deceased’s person’s estate. Otherwise a court order will be required. So if you are unsure as whether you want to take on the role, contact us and we can discuss the matter in further detail.

    In relation to options 2 and 3 above, once the Grant of Probate has been extracted you must proceed to administrate the estate as you will not longer have the option to reserve or renounce.


    http://www.bmsolicitors.ie/wills-and-probate/probate/faq-in-probate/
     
  13. Prosper

    Prosper Registered User

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    Yes, I just got off the phone with the Probate Office and neither renounce or reserve is an option I like. Renounce definitely not as if something happens the "active" executor, one of the renounced executors cannot simply be substituted into the role - it becomes necessary to involve legal expertise. Reserve is less drastic but still not attractive (to me at least) because if active executor needs to be replaced by one of the reserved executors then the application for GOP has to start from the beginning again.
    So once agreed with the others, we will proceed with a Personal Application. Thanks.