Free Public Travel

Past30Now

Registered User
Messages
106
Hi All,

Shane Ross on the back of last Sundays Independants Business Section spoke briefly about the idea of making all public transport, particularly in Dublin, free. No charge to use either Dublin Bus, the Luas, DART, trains from Maynooth, Dundalk etc. If they doubled the fleet of buses tomorrow it might be a brilliant idea.

Disadvantages - kids travelling five hundred yards on a bus because that aren't bothered walking - tax system paying for all of the services as opposed only paying for half of it now (Dublin Bus definitely get a subsidy €600M plus, I think the LUAS is operating without one, I don't know about the DART or other trains).

Advantages - It would probably eliminate gridlock in Dublin immediately - No costs would be borne associated with integrated ticketing - no cost of counting cash/lodging fees/administration etc.

Any thoughts? Any other advantages/disadvantages?


Past30
 
It would probably eliminate gridlock in Dublin immediately
I don't see that this would necessarily be the case. Even now many forms of public transport can be full/beyond capacity especially at peak times (e.g. try getting on the Luas between 8-10AM and 5-7PM or finding anything other than standing room on the Cork/Mallow/Limerick-Dublin train!) so making it free doesn't necessarily mean that people will be able to use it unless there is increased capacity laid on. In addition anecdotal evidence suggests to me that there is a large body of people out there who are wedded to their car (usually as sole occupants on most or all journeys) who would never countenance using public transport at all - especially if it was even more packed than normal. And then there are people who cannot use public transport for all or most of their normal journeys.

In short - as ever there are probably no simple quick fixes.
 
interesting idea, though considering most of the population don't live in the greater Dublin area (yet!) it would also have to be implemented in all the regional cities and their feeder towns - unfortunately the traffic chaos isn't confined to Dublin.

I know Melbourne and Perth have free trams/buses in their city centres (doing circular loops of the city centre) and I'm sure there are other cities with similar systems.

Does anyone know if you can claim tax-breaks for using public transport? That would be another way for the government to encourage the use of the service.


Hi All,

Shane Ross on the back of last Sundays Independants Business Section spoke briefly about the idea of making all public transport, particularly in Dublin, free. No charge to use either Dublin Bus, the Luas, DART, trains from Maynooth, Dundalk etc. If they doubled the fleet of buses tomorrow it might be a brilliant idea.

Disadvantages - kids travelling five hundred yards on a bus because that aren't bothered walking - tax system paying for all of the services as opposed only paying for half of it now (Dublin Bus definitely get a subsidy €600M plus, I think the LUAS is operating without one, I don't know about the DART or other trains).

Advantages - It would probably eliminate gridlock in Dublin immediately - No costs would be borne associated with integrated ticketing - no cost of counting cash/lodging fees/administration etc.

Any thoughts? Any other advantages/disadvantages?


Past30
 
Does anyone know if you can claim tax-breaks for using public transport? That would be another way for the government to encourage the use of the service.
Only this:

[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
 
I think price is irrelevant, there can't be many people for whom the cost of taking a car into the city is cheaper than public transport. The convenience is paramount and sadly much of our public transport lacks this.
 
Making something cheap or free only makes sense if supply exceeds demand. With Public transport the reverse is true.

Now, the fact that this idea makes no sense, doesn't mean it wouldn't be implemented. But, it would be inevitably paid for by increasing the tax on cars. The same people would be using public transport, perhaps a few more, nothing dramatic, for all the reasons mentioned above.

Step one is accept that a lot (and a growing number) of people who work in Dublin, live outside the city center, either in Suburbs or in surrounding counties. For many of these there just isn't public transport.

I recall living in Bray for a while I couldn't get onto a Dart in the mornings, I tried various stops between Bray and the city center and I either couldn't park the car, or I couldn't fit on the train. People were actually driving out from closer city to get on the Dart at the early stops on the line, because they couldn't fit on at their local stop. I just drove to the city center, it took a while sometimes, but at least I was comfortable, dry, and sure of getting a seat. (this despite the fact that a Dart stopped outside my office).

You can dramatically reduce cars in the city center if you want, but you have to have the will to do it. Create a perimeter around the city, create enough parking at the perimeter that will give people confidence that if they go to their local Park and Ride they'll actually find a place. Then provide an abundance of public transport from the Park and Rides to various parts of the city.

By trying to build public transport on the cheap you end up with a system that costs more in the long run.

The evidence is that Irish people are no different to anywhere else, if you build it they will use it. Buses, Dart, Luas etc are all heavily used. If there are too many cars in the city center it's because there either aren't enough public transport options, or the ones there are are too hard to access.

It doesn't affect me any more, but it was particularly infuriating to have people talk about traffic as if Motorists were the problem. Motorists have shown that they'll use alernatives, the problem is the alternatives.

-Rd
 
the train service from dundalk invariably starts in belfast ( few exceptions) with the result the trains are usually at bursting point before they even arrive in dundalk. few years ago matthews coaches started up a motorway service from dundalk to dublin with a stop in drogheda. empty at first. then they began to fill up. result 22 times a day to dublin now and purchasing more and more busses all the time. ( course good old bus eireann who refused to have a motorway run now compete with them and even undercut them for price on the drogheda/dublin leg. on that subject cie in general have asked for a price increase but any bets they dont increase it where they have competition?) matthews also have the tax refund scheme in operation for anyone who qualifies.I Dont think its necessary to have free travel, just very reasonably priced, frequent,clean, not overcrowded and well maintained. then a lot of us would happily switch over to public transport. I for one wouldn't dream of driving to dublin anymore when I can get a €10 return ticket which takes just over 1.25 hours for the 80kms. (and no , I don't work for or know anyone at matthew coaches, who are based in inniskeen just outside dundalk)
 
Pity one alternative isn't to allow bus lanes to be used as car pool lanes?

Yes, that could help, many cities have Car Pool lanes on the major roads into the city. The car pool lane reverses direction in the evenings to cater for the returning traffic.

I think the Irish problem with that is enforcement. They don't want to introduce any rules that would allow civilian cars to use bus lanes because they don't want to have to distinguish between single occupant and multi-occupant vehicles. They don't have the will power to put a bit of elbow grease into dealing with the problem.

Don't let them fool you into thinking that this is solely about the attitudes of commuters, it's partly that, but there's more to it. There are real positive steps that could be taken but aren't. They aren't rocket science, they aren't visionary, they aren't new. Sure they cost money, sure they might require more policing, but they will help.

If you want no cars at all in a city center you can do it (even in Dublin), it's not impossible, it just means spending even more money on an even more state of the art alternative to the car. Again, it can be done, but it won't happen by trying to convince people to switch to an alternative that doesn't exist.

I'm as much a car lover as anyone. I'm a member of a motor club, I enjoy driving so much I'll sometimes cover hundreds of miles in a weekend for not other reason than they fun of it. But when I'm in Dublin and I need to get to Stephen's Green, I park at Leopardtown and get teh Luas.

Prior to Luas I used to drive in and park in either the clients carpark, or the Shopping Center Car Park. If the Luas becomes busy enough that I can't get parking, I'll go back to driving in. It's cheaper than a taxi, even when I pay for parking.

-Rd
 
I think the Irish problem with that is enforcement.
Probably that and many individuals' inability to behave responsibly in such situations. Imagine if they tried to use US style four way stops at junctions in Ireland for example... And just look at all the AAM threads along the lines of "I committed some road offence and got caught/punished but here are my reasons why they should not have picked on me and stuck with catching the real wrongdoers blah blah blah...". :rolleyes:
 
The problem in Ireland, in my humble opinion, is not the cost of public transport but the absence of a public transport system. Several years after the various bits of CIE were told to set up an integrated ticketing system for instance, they still haven't done it. Why can't the minister call in the heads of the three bodies and tell them to implement it by next month or lose their jobs? You can buy such a system off the shelf surely; I was in Manchester last week and there are several bus companies working fine together in that city.

If there was a system in Dublin that meant that I could get around between various locations, I would use it, but I use my car almost exclusively, out of necessity. In cities like London, Budapest etc, where excellent systems exist, I wouldn't dream of using a car -- there is simply no need for one.

If they were to bring in an integrated system and oblige people to use either daily or weekly flat rate tickets bought from newsagents or kiosks/machines, with no access to buses and trams without a ticket, it would have merit. Some joined-up thinking needed in the public transport area in Ireland.
 
The problem in Ireland, in my humble opinion, is not the cost of public transport but the absence of a public transport system.
I don't think that this is unique to Ireland. I was in California recently and as a non driver was able to take the BART and then the Caltrain to within striking distance of work/hotel but still needed a lift/taxi to my final destination. And the SF bay area would probably be one of the better examples of public transportation service in the US.
 
>Imagine if they tried to use US style four way stops at junctions in >Ireland for example

There are problems with them in the US too, although it works pretty well. I reasonably regularly find myself at a junction where I know the other person has the right of way, and they aren't moving.
Then I move and so do they.

And just look at all the AAM threads along the lines of "I committed some road offence and got caught/punished but here are my reasons why they should not have picked on me and stuck with catching the real wrongdoers blah blah blah...".

Fair enough, but the only two points I have on my licence I got for doing 50 on the Tallaght bypass when it was a 40 zone. The garda was standing at the first speed limit I came to after getting on the road, and he swore to me that there were signs showing the limit on the onramp I used. (There weren't). They later changed that road to 50mph.

A friend of mine, son of a Garda was doing 80mph in a 60mph zone. When he gave his name and address the garda asked him "How's the oul fella" and left him go.

When laws are enforced like in these two cases you're going to have people letting off steam about it.

-Rd
 
>
A friend of mine, son of a Garda was doing 80mph in a 60mph zone. When he gave his name and address the garda asked him "How's the oul fella" and left him go.

When laws are enforced like in these two cases you're going to have people letting off steam about it.

-Rd

But the whole country runs on the 'How's the oul fella' system! I only really realised this lately even though it is how things have been for many years here. The place would fall apart without that system!

It would be nice if we had an integrated public transport system. It wouldn't have to be free - just sensibly managed and easily understandable. Chances of this happening? Zero.
 
The question is why does Shane Ross think what he thinks. I know some people don't like him, but in general I always presumed from listening to him that he understood basic concepts like Supply and Demand, so where has this come from?

I've often thought it'd be great to be able to hop on and off buses and trams without fidgeting for change, hop from one to another without worrying about connecting tickets. But my solution isn't to make transport free, it's to provide the citizens with a monthly or annual pass that works on all forms of transport, Nationwide.

Pensioners have these, the hours are limited, but the pass is free. Let the rest of us buy one that doesn't have time restrictions, and this one particular problem with public transport is solved.

Sure it'll cost money to implement, the revenue will probably be less than the current system, but if the state is waiting for a public transport that costs nothing then they'll never find one.

How about this as a trial? Give 1,000 motorists a card that entitles the holder to free access to all public transport in Dublin for 6 months, and free parking at any park and ride facility.

Motorists are easy to find, they're usually parked on one of the many roads into the city. If you want you can just hand out a leaflet that gives them instructions on how to visit a website and upload a photo and details for the card.

Call them up 6 months later and ask them if they used the card, and how much they'd be willing to pay to have it for 12 months. If the motorists don't use them, ask them why, what could be done to make them use it. If they do you may have found a way to get people to pay to leave their car out of the city.

Even if every single one of them used it 5 days a week for 6 months, and get 6 Euro value each day, it's still only 780,000. Add in a bit to build a website, manufacture the cards, and distribute them, and you could probably do the whole scheme for 1.5m. Treble that because it's the government running the scheme and you could do all this for less than ....

5 million Euro.

ok forget it, dumb idea.

-Rd
 
The question is ............
ok forget it, dumb idea.

-Rd

Err, I take it whilst people may have seen the links in the thread above, may even have seen the ads, that absolutely no one uses the tax saver bus/rail tickets?

I have one and it costs me ~E400 p/a. The cost before tax is E750 but for anyone on the 41% rate this equates to a E350 saving.

400 / 52 is less than 8 euros a week. I would spend that on nightlinks alone if it wasn't for the yearly ticket. So I effectively get free public transport already. There seems to be a bit of a mental block with Joe Public, that he needs to be phyically given something back before he sees the saving (kinda like the SSIA vs pensions, 25% into your bank account feels like more than the 41% tax saving)

Obviously all predicated on being a 41% tax payer.
 
Err, I take it whilst people may have seen the links in the thread above, may even have seen the ads, that absolutely no one uses the tax saver bus/rail tickets?

Mrs daltonr used it when we lived in Dublin. She had to drive from Firhouse to Donnybrook to catch a bus to baggot street. Since she had to catch the bus anyway it made financial sense to have the pass, but having paid for a bus pass, it's bizarre that the place that made most sense to park was pracatically in the city. She experimented with various locations and routes from home, and Donnybrook worked out best when cost and overall journey time were taken into account.

Add to that the fact that it makes more financial sense for someone on high income than low income, and you've got a kind of flawed system.

But yes, for those that it suits it's great. Much like public transport in general, really.

-Rd
 
Add to that the fact that it makes more financial sense for someone on high income than low income, and you've got a kind of flawed system.

Definately, and coincidentally it's usually employers who pay the better wages who are more inclined to engage in the tax saver scheme. You should really be able to claim the tax rebate yourself once you have the receipts, much like refuse charges.
 
Pity one alternative isn't to allow bus lanes to be used as car pool lanes?

O This post will be deleted if not edited immediately no. As a cyclist, I'm already battling with buses and taxis and motorbikes. Most of the "cycle" lanes where I live are actually combined bus-and-cycle lanes. Nothing scarier than buses and taxis thinking you should pull over (to where??) so they can overtake you.
Only if they ever get round to re-jigging the entire bus land /bike lane system......
 
Last edited:
Back
Top