Bankruptcy term reduced to 1 year - IPO for 3 years?

[KrakityJones]

Hi again

Would you know if the IPO of 3 years kicks in after the 1 year of bankruptcy or is it from the start? Eg if I went bankrupt on 1st Jan 2016 and had an IPO would I be paying this back for 3 years total or 4 years total?

 

[Stuboy]

Hi again

Would you know if the IPO of 3 years kicks in after the 1 year of bankruptcy or is it from the start? Eg if I went bankrupt on 1st Jan 2016 and had an IPO would I be paying this back for 3 years total or 4 years total?

3 years total

 

[MikeL2007]

Hi folks,

Has anyone heard any update on when the Minister will actually the sign the commencement order given the President signed it in December?

Mike

 

[Silvio Dante]

I asked Averil Power to raise it with Justice and they replied last week to say "no set date as yet but working on it and should commence within weeks"

Stuboy was kind enough to refer me to Averil some months back and I have to say she has been extraordinarily helpful.

 

[MikeL2007]

Thanks Silvio. Only delay I can think of is that the ISI/Courts aren't ready for it, all the minister has to do is sign it

 

[Silvio Dante]

Thanks Silvio. Only delay I can think of is that the ISI/Courts aren't ready for it, all the minister has to do is sign it

I don't think that's it, think it's procedural, never commences immediate on signing, will always be a few procedural issues.
Probably not helped by Dail being off for 3 weeks post signing but that's life.

Again Averil Power took up issue with Justice of potential logjam with 2.5 years of bankrupts being discharged on a single date (6 months post commencement date).
She was assured this isn't an issue and the discharge is "automatic" unless the ISI intend to apply for an extension.

I'd be a little dubious at the seamlessness of this but we have no choice now but to wait and see.

 

[MikeL2007]

Thanks Silvio.

Does that not contradict Senator Powers query and associated response from the Seanad debate before Christmas where the FG deputy for Justice said that the release of bankrupts would be staggered?

 

[Silvio Dante]

It was Aodhan O' Riordan and yes it would appear it does.
If you look at the footage you will see he is a bit unsure himself and I think he just winged the answer as the debate was coming to a close when Senator Power intervened.

However, the legislation and what the Minister said in the Seanad should still allow for ISI to discharge on a staggered basis, if for no better reason that it is the most sensible, fair and orderly way to do it.

My intention would be that I will write to the ISI on commencement and ask that I be released as all my affairs have been long taken care of and see what they say.
It is surely in the ISI interest to get people out who have served more than a year already and whose affairs have been dealt with and not allow a logjam develop with approx 1,000 bankrupts due for discharge on a set date 6 months from now.

 

[MikeL2007]

Exactly the same plan here Silvio.

 

[breakonthru]

bankrupt on 1st Jan 2016 and had an IPO

Hi folks,

Just in relation to the above, if i went bankrupt and the OA found that my income was under the Reasonable Living Guideline amounts - at what date after bankruptcy would the OA come back and check if i'm earning more than the RLE's?

• Every month for 1 year,
• every month for three years,
• etc?

I.e at what point will the OA stop bothering me in relation to "do i have any more cash for my creditors"?

Cheers

 

[Stuboy]

Hi folks,

Just in relation to the above, if i went bankrupt and the OA found that my income was under the Reasonable Living Guideline amounts - at what date after bankruptcy would the OA come back and check if i'm earning more than the RLE's?

• Every month for 1 year,
• every month for three years,
• etc?

I.e at what point will the OA stop bothering me in relation to "do i have any more cash for my creditors"?

Cheers

Do you mean during your bankruptcy?
if so then you are obliged to inform the OA if your income changes and may put you over the RLE level.
If you get an increase in your income which puts you over the RLE and do not inform the OA then you could be considered to be concealing assets/income.

Once you are discharged (presuming you are not over the RLE at that point) the OA has no more interest in you; you are no longer bankrupt.

 

[breakonthru]

Do you mean during your bankruptcy?

..yes, exactly during the 1 year bankruptcy period.

So, do i take from your post - that from the date of being declared a bankrupt - there is no more communication between I and the OA, ISI - unless i get extra income over my agreed RLE amount?

Also, what event is it that i use as the date when i'm declared a bankrupt? When i appear in court, when i get a leter from the OA saying i am bankrupt??

Am planning to go bankrupt in May this year and am doing what i can to get under the RLE guidelines so that an IPA or IPO does not get triggered.

Cheers,

BreakOnThru

 

[Stuboy]

..yes, exactly during the 1 year bankruptcy period.

So, do i take from your post - that from the date of being declared a bankrupt - there is no more communication between I and the OA, ISI - unless i get extra income over my agreed RLE amount?

Also, what event is it that i use as the date when i'm declared a bankrupt? When i appear in court, when i get a leter from the OA saying i am bankrupt??

Am planning to go bankrupt in May this year and am doing what i can to get under the RLE guidelines so that an IPA or IPO does not get triggered.

Cheers,

BreakOnThru

I am not sure what the newer protocol on the court appearance is (i.e. whether you are still required to appear in court or not) you have two court appearances, the date of the first is the date you are declared bankrupt by the judge (this is the date from which you are bankrupt, and you receive a letter from the court confirming that) the second date (approx a month later) is to allow time for creditors to challenge your bankruptcy, and during which, you must advertise your bankruptcy. If you have made your advertisements and crossed all your t's, dotted the i's etc. the Judge declares that you have passed that sitting.

Following your first sitting you will be asked to make contact with a representative of the OA (the rep was outside the court after my first sitting taking peoples details/answering questions) s/he will arrange to get a statement of income from you. Once you supply this, and your living circumstances, they will apply the figures to a costing excel template and inform you whether you will need to make a voluntary payment (Payment Agreement) to them monthly. If you are deemed to be over the RLE and refuse to make the voluntary payment, the OA will go to court to get a Payment Order, this is a court appointed order that is hard to get adjusted or get out of.

You don't want one of these; if your income goes down it is hard to get it adjusted as that must be done in court and that takes time/costs money.
The Payment Agreement can be adjusted on a days notice if your income goes up or down, just by e-mailing your case manager. My understanding now is that there is a system of good faith on the part of the OA as regards keeping them informed if your income or circumstances change. I have never had the OA contact me seeking an update as I would stay in touch at least every 6 months as per the agreement. When my income changed, i informed the OA immediately with payslips, and alterations to the PA were implemented and the standing order changed.
I have found them very good to deal with, they are under-resourced with many new bankruptcies, but are prompt and reasonable.

Sorry about the long answer, hope it helps.

 

[Stuboy]

..there is no more communication between I and the OA, ISI -

I should probably say that it is a very light touch experience (certainly in my experience anyway) they do not micromanage your life, you do not have to clear purchases with them, they do not view your bank statements. The main causes I have had to have contact with the OA is due to continuing harassment from banks and their legal representatives post bankruptcy. in these circumstances the OA Representative has directly contacted the former creditor directly with instruction to cease contact.

On a personal note (and I realise that all cases are completely unique) the entire process has provided a huge amount of relief to my wife and I (we are both bankrupt).
there is no more ducking and diving with creditors, borrowing from family to pay a bit here and there. No bank meeting where they crawl through your statement looking at your spend history.
We now have certainty with a definite exit this year once the new legislation is commenced.

I would also say, be prepared to potentially lose ALL assets. We kept our car as it was worth little or nothing anyway, however, we lost our house. But we were prepared for that from the outset and went into the process with our eyes wide open.

Anyone that tells you that you will definitely keep your house is wrong. You could in certain circumstances but it depends on your situation. Take advice from a professional who knows the process, there are some excellent people on here that you can quiz, but sit down with someone and go over everything in detail and in person.

IF you can afford a PIP to help with the application forms well and good (we did them ourselves in the end) but the ISI office were very helpful in pointing out alterations needed to forms which we needed to resubmit.

Best of Luck and be sure you know what your getting into, because once you have your first sitting you can't change your mind. I saw someone trying to get it reversed in on the second sitting with me when the realities were kicking in and the Judge was having none of it.

Stuboy.

 

[Matthew Moore]

..yes, exactly during the 1 year bankruptcy period.

So, do i take from your post - that from the date of being declared a bankrupt - there is no more communication between I and the OA, ISI - unless i get extra income over my agreed RLE amount?

Also, what event is it that i use as the date when i'm declared a bankrupt? When i appear in court, when i get a leter from the OA saying i am bankrupt??

Am planning to go bankrupt in May this year and am doing what i can to get under the RLE guidelines so that an IPA or IPO does not get triggered.

Cheers,

BreakOnThru

Everything Stuboy said is spot on. They are really easy to deal with if you are fair to them. It's worth noting that although it is relatively light touch, there are huge powers to make the bankruptcy difficult so honesty is the best policy.
I imagine with the new 1 year bankruptcy they will be intouch 3 times at most. In the beginning, middle and end. Have a look at this post on my blog and scroll down to "IPA04 Income Assessment (1)". This will show you the form they use to assess your income.

[broken link removed]

 

[Matthew Moore]

I am not sure what the newer protocol on the court appearance is (i.e. whether you are still required to appear in court or not) you have two court appearances, the date of the first is the date you are declared bankrupt by the judge (this is the date from which you are bankrupt, and you receive a letter from the court confirming that) the second date (approx a month later) is to allow time for creditors to challenge your bankruptcy, and during which, you must advertise your bankruptcy. If you have made your advertisements and crossed all your t's, dotted the i's etc. the Judge declares that you have passed that sitting.

I think that second sitting will be gone once the new bill is enacted.

 

[breakonthru]

Thanks to Matthew and Stuboy for their responses thus far!

Interesting to see that the 'IPA04 Income Assessment Form' has the following line - 'Self-Employed Income - Management Accounts for last quarter and Last Tax Return'..

While i'm currently earning rent from the properties i let - this 'rent roll' will obviously 'stop' once i'm declared bankrupt with all assets handed over to the OA.

So therefore, it would not make sense to include this 'income' as part of an IPA / IPO assessment!!

I suppose that should be obvious to the OA / ISI

______

It's always great to hear and read other's stories of how they have found the bankruptcy route thus far. I personally think it's a no-brainer from my perspective for the following reasons -

a) No more phone calls from tenants about broken heating systems, i've repaired them as much as i can - can't afford to pay more.
b) No calls from creditors looking for this and that.
c) No more tax returns, accountancy fees etc.
d) No more payments with surcharges to Revenue for taxes due.
f) No chance of creditors getting our inheritance from both sets of grandparents as we'll be free of bankruptcy before they kick the bucket!
g) No need to make LPT payments that have built up over the years, ditto Irish Water bills for all the properties, etc.

______

So we'll stick to renting for the next few years in a great part of town and build up some savings post bankruptcy for an eventual house purchase down the road.

BreakOnThru

 

[Silvio Dante]

Exactly the same plan here Silvio.

Hi Mike,

Would you be kind enough to contact Willie Penrose and push the commencement order?
I'm happy it's imminent but the election is likely to be called any day and after all the heavy lifting that was done to get it passed it would be awful for it to not commence in this dail.

Anyone else involved should also contact local rep and/or email [email protected] and ask when it will commence.

 

[Stuboy]

Hi Mike,

Would you be kind enough to contact Willie Penrose and push the commencement order?
I'm happy it's imminent but the election is likely to be called any day and after all the heavy lifting that was done to get it passed it would be awful for it to not commence in this dail.

Anyone else involved should also contact local rep and/or email [email protected] and ask when it will commence.

As I'm sure everyone has heard, the Dail will be dissolved next week, I would urge anyone with an interest to follow Silvio's suggestion and get onto Justice for this to be commenced or else we could be waiting quite a while!

 

[MikeL2007]

Contact made with Willie Penrose and Pat Rabbitte guys.

As soon as I hear will let you know. Hopefully that fact the Labour Ard Fheis is on this weekend will bring this back into the Public eye if there's no movement on it by then.