Advice for disciplinary meeting

Latest update:

The managers who were under investigation were individually told to attend disciplinary hearings with "Independent" Managers to explain themselves. Half were dealt with by Independent Manager (A) and half with Independent Manager (B). A decided to dismiss charges against all the managers he investigated while B decided to impose sanctions (warnings) against all the people he investigated.

B decided the managers were guilty in spite of that a) there was no formal process defining the requirement to monitor actual hours worked b) there was inadequate guidance for managers on the definition of shift or the application of shift premium and c) the only guidance provided was on the intranet site and referred to shift payment "in consideration for working unusual hours or patterns".

So, after 13 very long months, the managers found "guilty" now have a right to appeal as the last stage of this process. However, the company refuses to release copies of the investigations report, witness statements, even minutes of our own original meetings with investigators.

It turns out that the person who will hear the appeals used to manage the person who carried out the "independent investigation" so there's a possible question mark over hour unbiased that can be - I'm wondering, in the event of a negative result internally what the best next steps should be to have my name cleared as I now have loads of evidence to provide employees I approved worked what could only be considered very very "unusual hours".?
 
Does your company disciplinary process state that you are allowed to see the reports.? If it does and they are refusing to do so, suggest you file a grievance using the grievance process

Just wondering as well, does your company have a corporate ethics and compliance division. (many US multinationals will have something like this). if so, is it worth filing a case with them on grounds of unethical behaviour by manager B and in relation to everything that led up to it.
 
I think the question at this stage is becoming how large a hole can your employer manage to dig, and how much will it cost them to get out of it. The fact that the independent managers found in completely different directions across the board means that everyone who went through manager B can claim unfair process.
 
We wonder why we need unions ? In a unionised workplace there is no way matters would get to this mess.
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Roger.
Looks like employer has royally broken all sensible rules.

Pay a few euro and get advice from a known workplace solicitor before you do anything else.(as per Purple)
............................................................................

Whatever else = keep your cool & your powder dry.
With luck things will resolve.
.........................
Creemeg,
Answer = make a living.
 
Purple said:
Time to get a solicitor involved.
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Thanks Purple, I have done so. Solicitor says case is compelling but I have to exhaust the internal process first, then possibly Rights Commissioner / LRC.

Having said that solicitor questions how hard I want to push it because of cost, potential reputational damage and possible backlash (and I understand all of that).

However, having a sanction could also have impact such as performance rating, salary increase, bonus, promotion ruler out and possibly even on job security so for me it's very important to win this.

Thanks for the advice,
R
 
thedaddyman said:
Does your company disciplinary process state that you are allowed to see the reports.? If it does and they are refusing to do so, suggest you file a grievance using the grievance process - apparently not, these "investigator" reports are not shared with anyone which I would have thought was a denial of my constitutional rights (eg. not allowing me to see minutes of MY meeting with them)

Just wondering as well, does your company have a corporate ethics and compliance division. (many US multinationals will have something like this). if so, is it worth filing a case with them on grounds of unethical behaviour by manager B and in relation to everything that led up to it.
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Good point, I'm off to check that out. I'm sure there is some blurb on some website :rolleyes:
 
Seagull said:
I think the question at this stage is becoming how large a hole can your employer manage to dig, and how much will it cost them to get out of it. The fact that the independent managers found in completely different directions across the board means that everyone who went through manager B can claim unfair process.
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At this stage I'm more worried about how much it's going to cost me to get my name cleared :(
 
Gerry Canning said:
We wonder why we need unions ? In a unionised workplace there is no way matters would get to this mess.
...........................
Roger.
Looks like employer has royally broken all sensible rules.

Pay a few euro and get advice from a known workplace solicitor before you do anything else.(as per Purple)
............................................................................

Whatever else = keep your cool & your powder dry.
With luck things will resolve.
.........................
Creemeg,
Answer = make a living.
Click to expand...

Thanks Gerry - advice taken....and acted upon,

Roger
 
Roger, please stop inserting your comments into the quotes of others, it's becoming a little confusing and misleading. If you want to quote pieces of another post, use the +Quote button to set up a multi-quote. When finished, ensure the other poster's comments are surrounded by the (QUOTE) and (/QUOTE) tags, substitute square brackets for the round there...

To clarify one point above, you do not have any constitutional right to someone else's minutes of a meeting, regardless of the topic.
 
ooops apologies Leo :(

in relation to "you do not have any constitutional right to someone else's minutes of a meeting, regardless of the topic." Surely I would be entitled to a copy of the minutes of MY first meeting where I was ambushed? I was told "These meetings are routine and please be assured that my request to speak with you carries absolutely no implication that you have done anything wrong", I was not allowed to bring a witness / representative and then basically suggestions of collusion and essentially fraud were put to me. Am I not entitled to those? And also, if they were taking evidence from people which were then to be used as "evidence"against me - would I not be entitled to them?

SI 146 states as follows:
6. The procedures for dealing with such issues reflecting the varying circumstances of enterprises/organisations, must comply with the general principles of natural justice and fair procedures which include:

• That employee grievances are fairly examined and processed;

• That details of any allegations or complaints are put to the employee concerned; (I was refused copies of the full report and all interviews including my own)

• That the employee concerned is given the opportunity to respond fully to any such allegations or complaints;

• That the employee concerned is given the opportunity to avail of the right to be represented during the procedure;

• That the employee concerned has the right to a fair and impartial determination of the issues concerned, taking into account any representations made by, or on behalf of, the employee and any other relevant or appropriate evidence, factors or circumstances.

7. These principles may require that the allegations or complaints be set out in writing, that the source of the allegations or complaint be given or that the employee concerned be allowed to confront or question witnesses. (this was never afforded to me)

Roger
 
Roger , you state {important you win}
Maybe not so.
By now your employers must realise they have goofed up ,and now might be the time to let matters rest, not because YOU are wrong but if you push matters too much ,all future employers will consider you a trouble maker (fault of companies nature!).
Maybe just put your (hurt) in writing , ask them to acknowledge your note and request that matters be closed.
If their brain cells are connected = happy days , if not , methinks inhouse hassle /legal etc but you have a paper trail showing reasonableness.
 
I think there's no doubt that proper procedures have not been followed here. You are absolutely entitled to get any and all complaints presented to you in writing, but that does not mean you will get a full transcript of allegations made by others, or that you are automatically entitled to another person's notes of any meetings you were in. They could be sought in court though if it goes that far, but you could find that some or all of them never made it onto your file.

Take a look through the [broken link removed] to date to get a sense of how those cases worked out.

You need to consider what end result are you hoping for, what your long term plans are and any potential impact on your career in that company or otherwise. If the case goes beyond the EAT and on to court, you're likely going to need to be able to prove what damages you have actually suffered. The EAT awards don't suggest there's many windfalls to be had pursuing cases like these.
 
Leo said:
You need to consider what end result are you hoping for, what your long term plans are and any potential impact on your career in that company or otherwise. If the case goes beyond the EAT and on to court, you're likely going to need to be able to prove what damages you have actually suffered. The EAT awards don't suggest there's many windfalls to be had pursuing cases like these.
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Thanks Leo - the outcome I am looking for at this stage is simply someone to take a truely independent view of what has happened from Day 1 and I believe in doing so I will have my good name back. Bear in mind that people who report to me were interviewed about me in the hope that something would stick so in their eyes I have been damaged, the same applies to the other managers who were "investigated". So, I'm not interested in windfalls - I've been a manager for > 20 years and I don't want to have some corporate seagull staining my reputation.

R
 
What's your view of a "win" here. Whilst your employers have definitely made an absolute haims of the whole thing it would seem to me that the likelihood of you receiving another warning is likely very low so will it really make that much of a difference to your career where you (presumably) have been happy enough for the past good number of years. Or do you think this may be the start of further disciplinary proceedings?
 
Hi Derek, I don't think this may be the start of further disciplinary hearing but as I said before having a sanction could also have impact such as performance rating, salary increase, bonus, promotion ruler out and possibly even on job security so for me it's very important to win this. There's also the small matter of clearing my name within and outside the company. And I also question the fairness of some managers being sanctioned for some wrongdoing (ie. signing off on a payment) while the employees who submitted the forms and received the payment have no sanction against them - is this not a double standard?
 
Hi Roger (again) There is much going on on this thread and I am getting a little confused. Without informing us of what company you work for, can you say how much you earn and the extent of your working responsibilities? I am asking this just so that I can get a handle on what type of manager you are. If you supervise people, how many?

. . . and just to throw a spanner in the works . . . if you do not come out of this favourably, what will be your losses? And probably to offend you a bit more, if you win what are the consequences? Is there middle ground for settlement?
 
rogeroleary said:
some managers being sanctioned for some wrongdoing (ie. signing off on a payment) while the employees who submitted the forms and received the payment have no sanction against them - is this not a double standard?
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I don't see why that would be the case. The manager signed off on something therefore the other employee could safely presume everything was kosher.
 
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