A&E departments crammed to capacity,whats Leo going to do now?

[dereko1969]

An additional bed ( it is this bed that I thought you were referring to ) is allowed under the extreme conditions that pertain at the moment , due to the difficulties that the introduction of an additional 2nd bed both management & unions have reached an agreement that a 2nd bed is not viable.

This remains the position of the INMO & management are constrained by the terms of the mutual agreement .

Positions change due to exigencies, perhaps the INMO might consider the needs of patients and their other members in A&E for a short period until the bed-blockers are removed from the system. Do you have a position on this or are you going to just parrot the INMO?

 

[Purple]

Positions change due to exigencies, perhaps the INMO might consider the needs of patients and their other members in A&E for a short period until the bed-blockers are removed from the system. Do you have a position on this or are you going to just parrot the INMO?

You cannot undermine your Comrades no matter how self-serving they may be. Do you not understand how vested interest groups work?
I hope you don't have a beard!

 

[Deiseblue]

Certainly I agree with the INMO position , the wards are understaffed & placing 2 additional beds in such wards is unsafe & simply moving the problem from one area to another .

It should be noted that Galway University Hospital have now joined their nursing colleagues in Beaumont in voting for a work to rule in protesting against what must be unbearable working conditions for staff & appalling conditions for some patients , in both Hospitals the vote amongst members for such action was unanimous , I presume that would include nursing staff on both wards & in A & E.

The reason I quoted from the INMO position was to clarify why hospital managers could not simply move a 2nd additional bed into a ward & to answer your question as to why nurses had to be asked in this context , after all such managers had previously agreed that such action was not viable.

 

[Purple]

The reason I quoted from the INMO position was to clarify why hospital managers could not simply move a 2nd additional bed into a ward & to answer your question as to why nurses had to be asked in this context , after all such managers had previously agreed that such action was not viable.

It is disingenuous to suggest that a position negotiated by the Union is the limit of what's safe.
The function of the Union is to get the most money for their members for the least amount of work.
If they could force the hospital management (if such a thing exists) to employ twice as many nurses to do half as much work then they would. They have no interest whatsoever in patient safety or conditions ; they only represent nurses and midwives.

 

[Deiseblue]

It's not going to get any easier for Leo !
Junior Minister Kathleen Lynch has stated that approx 1,000 nurses are to retire by June 2015 , the Government's main strategy at this stage is asking them to stay !
This is unlikely to cut much ice as under the Haddington Road Agreement the cut off point for keeping previous pension entitlements is June 2015.
The Head of the Hospital consultants association has also stated that despite recently improving terms & conditions for the 200 consultant vacancies such improvement is not sufficient to attract them to these jobs & with newly qualified nurses being attracted abroad by better pay & conditions Leo is really up against it.

 

[Purple]

It's not going to get any easier for Leo !
Junior Minister Kathleen Lynch has stated that approx 1,000 nurses are to retire by June 2015 , the Government's main strategy at this stage is asking them to stay !
This is unlikely to cut much ice as under the Haddington Road Agreement the cut off point for keeping previous pension entitlements is June 2015.

Is the recruitment embargo reason for the lack of nurses or is it that they have vacancies that they can’t fill?
If it’s the former then pay levels are not an issue. If it’s the latter then pay levels are an issue.
If there are more places than suitable applicants then they are underpaid. If there are more suitably qualified people seeking to be employed as nurses than there are nursing places then they are overpaid and the state is wasting money that should be used on patient care. It’s simple supply and demand economics.
The best and most equitable way of addressing pay issues is a modest cut to salary and pension payments for existing nurses so that their newer colleagues (or comrades in Union speak) can enjoy the same pay levels. Fair days pay for a fair days work and all that.

The Head of the Hospital consultants association has also stated that despite recently improving terms & conditions for the 200 consultant vacancies such improvement is not sufficient to attract them to these jobs & with newly qualified nurses being attracted abroad by better pay & conditions Leo is really up against it.

The same applies here.
It would also help of the quality of care, quality of training and quality of administration was also up to international standards. That in itself would attract more doctors.
I'm not saying that Irish doctors or nurses are not up to international standards (though clearly there's nothing "world class" about them). I am saying that the structures they work within are not fit for purpose.

 

[Firefly]

The best and most equitable way of addressing pay issues is a modest cut to salary and pension payments for existing nurses

Have you lost your MIIINND young man?

 

[Purple]

Have you lost your MIIINND young man?

I didn't say it would happen. I said it was the fairest and most equitable thing. We all know there's no chance of it happening, just as there's no chance of having a patient centred health service.

 

[Deiseblue]

Figures obtained by Morning Ireland show that 4,000 Nurses left the HSE between 2010 & 2013 , the " yellow pack " graduate scheme has proven disastrous despite the fact that the Haddington Road Agreement went some distance towards addressing the pay imbalance between 2010 & 2011 graduates.

The HSE had embarked on a recruitment process which generated 3,700 applicants , much of these applications would appear to be simply on " a registering of interest basis " as evidenced by the fact that
both Ms. Lynch & Mr. Varadkar are appealing for Nurses to not only postpone retirement but to return from the UK where terms & conditions are better .

The INMO point out that some graduates are being offered 3 month contracts by the HSE whilst the UK are seeking 20,000 full time positions.

There is speculation that the HSE is to proceed with a further recruitment drive but unless terms & conditions improve I fear that it must be accepted that the majority of our nurses will seek more favourable terms abroad.

Nursing Homes Ireland ( NHI ) have stated that the nursing shortage crippling healthcare delivery in hospitals will spread to nursing homes unless major recruitment is delivered.

 

[Firefly]

Figures obtained by Morning Ireland show that 4,000 Nurses left the HSE between 2010 & 2013 , the " yellow pack " graduate scheme has proven disastrous despite the fact that the Haddington Road Agreement went some distance towards addressing the pay imbalance between 2010 & 2011 graduates.

The HSE had embarked on a recruitment process which generated 3,700 applicants , much of these applications would appear to be simply on " a registering of interest basis " as evidenced by the fact that
both Ms. Lynch & Mr. Varadkar are appealing for Nurses to not only postpone retirement but to return from the UK where terms & conditions are better .

The INMO point out that some graduates are being offered 3 month contracts by the HSE whilst the UK are seeking 20,000 full time positions.

There is speculation that the HSE is to proceed with a further recruitment drive but unless terms & conditions improve I fear that it must be accepted that the majority of our nurses will seek more favourable terms abroad.

Nursing Homes Ireland ( NHI ) have stated that the nursing shortage crippling healthcare delivery in hospitals will spread to nursing homes unless major recruitment is delivered.

Hi Deise,

I'm supposing (as I don't know) that if nurses' salaries were increased then there would be a orderly line formed pretty quickly at the doors of the HSE by others looking for "their" increase. That seems to be the way it works, like an episode of the Late Late Show..."someone for everyone". Hence the system is pretty inflexible in meeting market demand for labour and probably explains why so many agency staff are being used.

Firefly.

 

[Deiseblue]

Absolutely Firefly , no sooner had the Labour Court approved improvements to the terms & conditions being offered to new consultants been announced then Unions representing the lower paid in the HSE were making the not unreasonable point that their members should have come first when it came to improved terms & conditions.

Unions are sensing a change in Government attitudes & pressure will continue to be applied in order to improve terms & conditions for ALL multi sectoral members , mind you the forthcoming election & the fact that the Government are placing such emphasis on economic recovery & social dialogue helps !

 

[Firefly]

Absolutely Firefly , no sooner had the Labour Court approved improvements to the terms & conditions being offered to new consultants been announced then Unions representing the lower paid in the HSE were making the not unreasonable point that their members should have come first when it came to improved terms & conditions.

Unions are sensing a change in Government attitudes & pressure will continue to be applied in order to improve terms & conditions for ALL multi sectoral members , mind you the forthcoming election & the fact that the Government are placing such emphasis on economic recovery & social dialogue helps !

So basically, if we want to fill nursing posts we will need to increase wages across the HSE? Can you not see the bind this puts the government in given its finite resources?

Or to put in another way, where do you think the government should take resources from in order to meet these wage demands?

 

[Purple]

Figures obtained by Morning Ireland show that 4,000 Nurses left the HSE between 2010 & 2013

The impression given here is that 4,000 nurses got a pain in their collective backsides and quit. How many of the 4,000 retired and how many left? When someone retires they don't "leave" their job, they retire from it. If in fact some or most of the 4,000 retired then this is yet another example of Trade Union disinformation. It could be a Nevin Institute statistic!

Or to put in another way, where do you think the government should take resources from in order to meet these wage demands?

Now who is being silly. The solution is simple, they just need to "tax the rich" so that "they" pay their "fair share". Never mind that we already "tax the rich" more than any other country on earth (at least what Unions consider the rich) or that increasing that tax burden will damage the economy even more than it is already doing.
The bottom line is that the INMO doesn't care where the money comes from. they don't care who suffers or if patients die. Their only interest is getting as much money as possible for their members. The same applies to all unions so this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

 

[Deiseblue]

So basically, if we want to fill nursing posts we will need to increase wages across the HSE? Can you not see the bind this puts the government in given its finite resources?

Or to put in another way, where do you think the government should take resources from in order to meet these wage demands?

Not only in the HSE but across the public sector

The Government have indicated that they will be meeting with public sector Unions in the short term to discuss the possibility of restoring pay cuts gradually together with reducing/abolishing the pension levy bearing in mind the removal of FEMPI legislation & the end of the Haddington Road Agreement .

The Government are playing the cards of economic recovery , the increasing tax returns & the decreasing unemployment figures in order to increase their standing with the electorate , this is of course a twin edged sword in that it raises expectations which is where the Unions sense opportunities , two senior Ministers calling for social dialogue will also be seen by the Unions as a positive step.

" Finite Resources " is not a phrase that is likely to feature in pre election engineering & with Mr. Dragi sweating buckets over the printing press more funds are on the way !

 

[Purple]

Not only in the HSE but across the public sector

The Government have indicated that they will be meeting with public sector Unions in the short term to discuss the possibility of restoring pay cuts gradually together with reducing/abolishing the pension levy bearing in mind the removal of FEMPI legislation & the end of the Haddington Road Agreement .

The Government are playing the cards of economic recovery , the increasing tax returns & the decreasing unemployment figures in order to increase their standing with the electorate , this is of course a twin edged sword in that it raises expectations which is where the Unions sense opportunities , two senior Ministers calling for social dialogue will also be seen by the Unions as a positive step.

" Finite Resources " is not a phrase that is likely to feature in pre election engineering & with Mr. Dragi sweating buckets over the printing press more funds are on the way !

Yep, like I said;

The bottom line is that the INMO doesn't care where the money comes from. they don't care who suffers or if patients die. Their only interest is getting as much money as possible for their members. The same applies to all unions so this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

 

[Firefly]

Not only in the HSE but across the public sector

" Finite Resources " is not a phrase that is likely to feature in pre election engineering & with Mr. Dragi sweating buckets over the printing press more funds are on the way !

I think this is a misconception. QE might enable governments to borrow more, but it's surely a short term measure.

The government has 2 ways to cover its expenditure:

Taxation - we're pretty much there at this stage if the Irish Water protests are anything to go by

Borrow - we're bound by rules on this now. Without the backstop of the ECB I'd shudder to think of how high our bond rates would be.

The other side of the equation is to reduce expenditure. There have been cuts for sure but not nearly enough.

I'll have to dig up references for this but the USC is currently bringing in 4bn a year in tax for the government. The interest on our national debt is now 3.75bn. The banking bailout is estimated to be 40bn, which is roughly 20% of our national debt.

This means that around 75% of the tax collected by the USC is going to pay the interest on the non banking bailout portion of our national debt. Sobering when one looks at one's next pay slip.

AND we're still borrowing AND youe think we should borrow more to increase wages - you couldn't make it up!

 

[Leper]

We are all jumping to conclusions of what happened to the nurses. The bottom line is that existing nurses were taken for granted, had their wages reduced, lost some premium payments, weekly working hours were extended, some lost 2 days annual leave, increments put on hold and added to these was almost a total embargo on recruitment.

Resulting in:- Extensive drop in morale, employment of Agency Nurses @ at least 50% dearer per hour, Additional Overtime (anything up to double the hourly rate), additional sick leave, rush to retirement of many nurses especially those 60 years of age and older. And the nursing agencies will recruit them to work (probably back in the hospital from which they retired) again for their existing wages multiplied by 1.5. Whatever way you look at this the costs of nursing soared as a result.

Then:- Before Christmas stalls from hospitals to recruit nurses returning home for Christmas were set up in our airports. The nurses returning home on holidays from the UK read the smaller details and considered applying for a moment, then remembered in the UK they are receiving a €2000.00 Relocation Allowance, Overtime, Better Working Conditions, Free Courses (that they would have to pay for in Ireland), Better chances of promotion. The vast majority of the nurses thought to themselves "Hey! I'm Nora the much praised nurse in Northampton, not Deborah the underachiever in Dublin." In my mind there was no contest and all headed through Departure Gates smiling after the New Year. And who could blame them?

Enter Leo de Min and Kathleen the Red (neither with beard) and they crawl to nurses who are pondering retirement. Hey Troops! All is forgiven, we want you to stay on (and defer your pension, of course) and work for us. We know you made the ultimate sacrifices, but we conned you before and we want to con you again! Now these nurses would be on half pay on on retirement in receipt of their pensions and now (if they volunteer) will work for less than half pay considering the tax and PRSI, deductions etc. Pensions would be put on hold and as soon as they are not needed the nurses will be discarded again. Nurses ain't stupid, you know.

. . . and the consultants will save us!

 

[Deiseblue]

I think this is a misconception. QE might enable governments to borrow more, but it's surely a short term measure.

The government has 2 ways to cover its expenditure:

Taxation - we're pretty much there at this stage if the Irish Water protests are anything to go by

Borrow - we're bound by rules on this now. Without the backstop of the ECB I'd shudder to think of how high our bond rates would be.

The other side of the equation is to reduce expenditure. There have been cuts for sure but not nearly enough.

I'll have to dig up references for this but the USC is currently bringing in 4bn a year in tax for the government. The interest on our national debt is now 3.75bn. The banking bailout is estimated to be 40bn, which is roughly 20% of our national debt.

This means that around 75% of the tax collected by the USC is going to pay the interest on the non banking bailout portion of our national debt. Sobering when one looks at one's next pay slip.

AND we're still borrowing AND youe think we should borrow more to increase wages - you couldn't make it up!

But that's what is going to happen.

The Government has hailed the end of austerity , the emergency no longer exists & therefore the FEMPI legislation is going to be unwound , unemployment is down , tax revenues are up & Mr. Draghi's bag men are on the way.

Such is the scenario being portrayed & we should remember that Mr. Howlin's stated intention to hold talks with the PS Unions as early as March on issues such as a gradual reversal of wage cuts & a reduction/abolition of the pension levy & his further stated belief along with Minister Noonan that a dialogue with social partners deserves support are both initiatives driven by the Government as employers & NOT BY THE UNIONS.

It seems to me that this Government are determined to reward the responsible social & fiscal attitude shown by Unions & their members in recent difficult years by gradually & moderately reversing the pay cuts & by involving Unions in discussions into the future on wage & taxation matters , the alternative is to leave the Unions outside the tent until the general election looms & the auction politics begin.

I am pleased to see that the work to rule at Beaumont Hospital has been called off as the board have agreed to increase staffing levels with recruitment to begin immediately , it will be interesting to see at what level of the nursing scale such vacancies will will be offered at as there isn't a hope of garnering sufficient applications at the yellow pack graduate level , let's hope the other 7 hospitals threatened with a work to rule respond in the same way as the Beaumont boards and staffing problems are resolved and patients benefit.

 

[Purple]

But that's what is going to happen.

The Government has hailed the end of austerity , the emergency no longer exists & therefore the FEMPI legislation is going to be unwound , unemployment is down , tax revenues are up & Mr. Draghi's bag men are on the way.

Such is the scenario being portrayed & we should remember that Mr. Howlin's stated intention to hold talks with the PS Unions as early as March on issues such as a gradual reversal of wage cuts & a reduction/abolition of the pension levy & his further stated belief along with Minister Noonan that a dialogue with social partners deserves support are both initiatives driven by the Government as employers & not by the Unions.

It seems to me that this Government are determined to reward the responsible social & fiscal attitude shown by Unions & their members in recent difficult years by gradually & moderately reversing the pay cuts & by involving Unions in discussions into the future on wage & taxation matters , the alternative is to leave the Unions outside the tent until the general election looms & the auction politics begin.

I am pleased to see that the work to rule at Beaumont Hospital has been called off as the board have agreed to increase staffing levels with recruitment to begin immediately , it will be interesting to see at what level of the nursing scale such vacancies will will be offered at as there isn't a hope of garnering sufficient applications at the yellow pack graduate level , let's hope the other 7 hospitals threatened with a work to rule respond in the same way as the Beaumont board.

It's amazing to see someone taking such relish in a vested interest group bullying and blackmailing the elected representatives of the people into actions that hurt the country in general, and the sick and poor in particular, in order to feather their own nests.

 

[Delboy]

It's amazing to see someone taking such relish in a vested interest group bullying and blackmailing the elected representatives of the people into actions that hurt the country in general, and the sick and poor in particular, in order to feather their own nests.

It's the party line and I can tell you from dealing with and listening to Trade Union reps over the years, they are the best at reading the diktats from Liberty Hall and repeating them ad nauseam. No point arguing or even debating with them- they've got their lines and they'll stick to them...kinda like a work to rule!!!