'Prime Time' highlighting pilot fatigue

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aonfocaleile

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Did anyone else see this issue covered on Prime Time last night? Are things really that bad in low cost airlines that issues like this cannot be dealt with internally and the pilots who were interviewed have to be dubbed by actors voices and have their faces hidden. Mr. O'Leary seemed very dismissive but he failed to actually answer the questions asked and just ranted on in general about terms and conditions of staff. I wonder is this a genuine H&S issue or a bid to get union recognition for pilots in the airline in question?
 
If there were genuine safety concerns about any Irish airline or indeed foreign owned airlines operating in Ireland I think the IAA might have something to say about it ! Read about their audit checks in [broken link removed]. Any programme about airline safety issue without participation by these guys is meaningless imo. I thought the programme was tripe of the highest order and I'm not Michael O' Leary.:D
 
Presumably if there were such safety risks, and at any time if a pilot really felt like he couldn't fly without falling asleep, that he'd step aside and not actually take the controls.

Even from his own personal desire to stay alive.
 
That would make sense alright but Miriam O'Callaghan alleged last night that when a pilot took this course of action, he/she was demoted on grounds of misconduct. Now, if thats true in its own right its a despicable practice but there could be a million other reasons for same that weren't pointed out on the programme.

There's an article in the examiner today where Ryanair describes the whole thing as a sham and the IAA is reported as saying that its offer of taking part in the live programme was rejected by RTE. I smell a rat...
 
demoivre said:
If there were genuine safety concerns about any Irish airline or indeed foreign owned airlines operating in Ireland I think the IAA might have something to say about it . .
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A relation of mine is an aircraft mechanic at Dublin Airport and he says that the IAA are known as 'a nod and a wink'.
demoivre said:
I thought the programme was tripe of the highest order . .
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Agreed, tripe.
 
What was the UK TV program a few months ago (?) which purported to expose all sorts of dodgy goings on with regard to safety on Ryanair flights only to be totally discredited? More of the same perhaps?
 
I have to say that there is probably something there worth investigating because anyone who travels Ryanair and sees how quickly how they do turnarounds must recognise how hard the pilots have to work. (Whether it istoo hard work is another story). Having said that, the way Prime Time covered it was pure tripe! If these Pilots are so scared about safety, let them come out and show their faces. As for the Doctor who admitted falsifying medical certs, not sure what his story was! I am not Ryanairs biggest fan but I would trust them on safety because it only takes one crash or serious incident and a low cost airline is out of business.

Good to see Michael O'Leary kick Miriam's ass though!!
 
If these Pilots are so scared about safety, let them come out and show their faces.
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The weird thing was that some of the pilots had gone on the record, as their names had been supplied to Ryanair, and O'Leary was willing to share their rosters. Given that, the voice overs and shadowed faces seemed like unnecessary theatrics.
 
aonfocaleile said:
There's an article in the examiner today where Ryanair describes the whole thing as a sham and the IAA is reported as saying that its offer of taking part in the live programme was rejected by RTE. I smell a rat...
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It's all a government/civil service/public service conspiracy to ensure that current Ryanair shareholders sell up (so that they're not owners of an unsafe airline) and buy Aer Lingus shares instead to bolster the governments coffers and the employees pensions :D
 
Yes, an interesting programme, and great to see such lively interest in the issue here.

I do some light aircraft flying, and I know a lot of people in the industry through that pursuit.

aonfocaleile is right. I remember Ryanair sacked a pilot earlier this year for refusing an extra duty after a long day because he was fatigued - this was mentioned in the program. He took them to court over it, but I don't think the case has been heard yet.
My mates in Ryanair tell me there is a culture of fear and intimidation in Ryanair, and anyone who opens his mouth to protest is just chopped. You just have to do whatever you're told. Tired or not.

Because Ryanair won't allow its pilots to form a union they set up a private website to discuss these problems. Ryanair went to the High Court to try and get the names of the pilots using the website! Basically they wanted to scare people away from it, so it would shut down.
They lost the court case, the Judge himself accused Ryanair management of lying and bullying! So in my opinion, its not a fiction.

I thought the Pilots Association representative was very poor though. O'Leary wiped the floor with him.
 
Meccano said:
My mates in Ryanair tell me there is a culture of fear and intimidation in Ryanair, and anyone who opens his mouth to protest is just chopped. You just have to do whatever you're told. Tired or not.
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But if the pilots don't like the conditions and working atmosphere, aren't they free to go and work elsewhere?

I detested the conditions in my last job - horrible work culture and even worse management behaviour. I didn't like it, I don't need to be treated that way, so I left. Simple!

I didn't go onto a national TV station with my face fuzzed over and complain. I didn't have a union behind me either, and if the "press" got hold of the working conditions in that company, they'd have a field day as well.

We can all be adults about these things. If you don't like it, move on.
 
Yeah, they're doing that too.

A lot of guys join Ryanair straight out of basic training, but many of the the more experienced ones are leaving. They generally look to go to airlines like Emirates (lots of Paddies there now) and Virgin Atlantic, as soon as they have accumulated the required qualifications (which can take 3 - 5 years).

Ryanair is a good place to get a start in the industry because with the high turnover there are rapid promotions to Captain, and funny enough the high number of hours flown just gets you qualified to leave even faster.

The downside is you get very young and inexperienced Captains!

On the other hand you also have a lot of guys who just don't want to move to the desert, because of family ties here etc.

I don't know what YOU do for a living ronan_d_john, but chances are you have numerous employment options in Ireland in your chosen carreer. In aviation in Ireland you've got Ryanair - or Aer Lingus (who haven't recruited since 1999). Aer Arann don't fly jets, and a jet type rating is a valuable qualification, not to be thrown away when you had to pay a lot of money to achieve it.

So what are the options for those guys? They are stuck with it.
 
Meccano said:
The downside is you get very young and inexperienced Captains!
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I thought that being a [pilot] captain implicitly meant that you already had a certain level of experience? Age shouldn't come into this in my opinion.
So what are the options for those guys? They are stuck with it.
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Have to agree with ronan_d_john's general gist. If it's that bad for some people then perhaps a change of career is called for. We all make mistakes in life - choosing the wrong job or even career may be one of them for some people.
 
I thought that being a [pilot] captain implicitly meant that you already had a certain level of experience? Age shouldn't come into this in my opinion.
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Ummm....well, you have to be 18! How young would you accept?
To be a Commercial Pilot you need to have 200 hours flight time and passed all the basic theory tests. With that you can become a Boeing 737 co-pilot with Ryanair.
To become a Captain in Ryanair you need to have built up 1,500 hours. That will take less than 2 years.
So you can walk into a flying school today and do 200 hours (which takes at least 6 months), and if you get a job in Ryanair you could be in sole charge of a high performance jet less than two years later - at the age of 20.
In some countries you can't even buy a drink at 20!

In most airlines it takes years to get to Command because the turnover is low. 10 years is typical.
At 2 years, you have the legal minimum experience, on paper.
On finishing his degree a junior doctor has the legal minimum experience to practice basic medicine - but he's no brain surgeon.
Paper qualifications are academic. Experience comes through time.
Still, when you fly Ryanair - as O'Leary would say - you get what you pay for!

Have to agree with ronan_d_john's general gist. If it's that bad for some people then perhaps a change of career is called for. We all make mistakes in life - choosing the wrong job or even career may be one of them for some people.
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The difficulty is that it costs a pilot over 100K nowadays to pay for the training and obtain the licence. Many of them can't just rip it up and walk away. Certainly though, many people have a silly over romanticised concept of the job. Its hard graft as far as I can see. No doubt there are plenty of youngsters who come down to earth with a crash (metaphorically speaking) after they've experienced the reality.

Personally I like flying, but then I don't have to do it for a living.
If I was ever to choose a flying carreer, Ryanair would be the last company I'd ever choose to work for. The people who join them probably deserve all they get.
 
thought that Michael wiped the floor with Miriam too and rightly so. she couldn't defend RTE for the unbalance in the video clip, the absence of proof ie duty rosters, and an Aer Lingus pilot as chief prosecutor didn't help her cause. Hope 'our' Michael stays in fighting form. I dont want an end to the cheap flights or his forcing of A/L to lower their charges.
 
I didn't see the programme, but I was talking to a guy who is currently aiming to fly commercially who did watch it. He reckoned it was hogwash, and from knowing several ryanair pilots he says he will jump at the chance to fly for them as soon as he completes his commercial flying course (or whatever). The thing is, the job's not exactly taxing, 15 mins work at both ends (so I'm informed, and even this isn't really necessary), so if pilots are getting too tired to fly those massive flights (what, roughly 3.5hrs is about the longest) one would have to worry about their health, although, admittedly, i get a little tired myself after lunch too!!
Meccano, i don't really understand your point about flying straight after getting your commercial licence, what is the problem with that? You have completed 200hrs, your superior has completed at least 1700 hrs, is that not sufficient in your opinion. As for comparing brain surgeons and pilots, well, see my point on job difficulty (which may be misinformed).
 
demoivre said:
If there were genuine safety concerns about any Irish airline or indeed foreign owned airlines operating in Ireland I think the IAA might have something to say about it ! Read about their audit checks in [broken link removed]. Any programme about airline safety issue without participation by these guys is meaningless imo. I thought the programme was tripe of the highest order and I'm not Michael O' Leary.:D
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Hear hear. I thought it was complete tripe also. Pure scare tactics and unbalanced reporting. Prime Time should have more respect for it's audience.
 
Meccano said:
Ummm....well, you have to be 18! How young would you accept?
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Whatever the relevant authorities lay down I suppose.
To become a Captain in Ryanair you need to have built up 1,500 hours. That will take less than 2 years.
So you can walk into a flying school today and do 200 hours (which takes at least 6 months), and if you get a job in Ryanair you could be in sole charge of a high performance jet less than two years later - at the age of 20.
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Sounds fine to me.
In some countries you can't even buy a drink at 20!
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So what?
On finishing his degree a junior doctor has the legal minimum experience to practice basic medicine - but he's no brain surgeon.
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Irrelevant.
Paper qualifications are academic. Experience comes through time.
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Like the 1500 flying hours mentioned above?
Still, when you fly Ryanair - as O'Leary would say - you get what you pay for!
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Yes - cheap flights on planes controlled by suitably qualified pilots.
 
Glenbhoy said:
I didn't see the programme, but I was talking to a guy who is currently aiming to fly commercially who did watch it. He reckoned it was hogwash, and from knowing several ryanair pilots he says he will jump at the chance to fly for them as soon as he completes his commercial flying course (or whatever). The thing is, the job's not exactly taxing, 15 mins work at both ends (so I'm informed, and even this isn't really necessary), so if pilots are getting too tired to fly those massive flights (what, roughly 3.5hrs is about the longest) one would have to worry about their health, although, admittedly, i get a little tired myself after lunch too!!
Meccano, i don't really understand your point about flying straight after getting your commercial licence, what is the problem with that? You have completed 200hrs, your superior has completed at least 1700 hrs, is that not sufficient in your opinion. As for comparing brain surgeons and pilots, well, see my point on job difficulty (which may be misinformed).
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I spend a fair bit of my spare time around airports, and hanging out with aviation-minded people. I have more than enough flight hours to hold a Commercial Licence myself. So I'm speaking from firsthand experience, not hearsay.
A few of your innacurate points would indicate to me that your young 'friend' has that 'romanticised idea' of the job I mentioned earlier? He's certainly given you a few bum steers I'm afraid.

If he told you the job entails '15 minutes' work 'at each end' then he is misinformed. That would mean you are too.
You mentioned 3.5 hour flights? Ryanair doesn't fly anywhere over 2 hours away (at present) and the VAST majority of their flights are 1 hour in length.

Clubman: The 200 hours minimum for a licence allows you to get a job and sit on the flight deck - which is then meant to be an APPRETICESHIP toward a Command.
It DOES NOT mean that you are a fully fledged pilot.

These licencing rules were drafted 60 years ago when it took decades to get a Command. They've never been brought up to date to reflect the low Command times in modern low cost airlines.

The fact that your 200 hour co-pilot has a very low experienced Captain (1500 hours) sitting beside him is a worry. The Captain isn't there to teach him to fly, he's there to do the job of getting the aircraft safely from A to B. The new guy hopefully learns over time - by observation. In other words, over time - he gains experience.

Usually things work out with this arrangement, as long as the flight is routine.
It's when an emergency situation arises that the cracks will show.

Regarding the 'brain surgeon' comment. It was an analogy. You interpret it to mean all pilots are brain surgeons. Funny!
What I was actually getting at was - I would prefer to have a 40 year old brain surgeon with 20 years experience poking inside my head than an 18 year old straight out of med school.

But yeah, I guess there IS a big difference between piloting a jet and being a brain surgeon.....if the surgeon screws up the brain surgery he'll still go home to the wife and kids for tea.

But if a pilot hits a mountain in an aircraft doing 600mph...he ain't going home for tea, nor are the other 120 odd souls on board.

So, come to think of it....I WANT my pilot to be even BETTER than a brain surgeon when I step on his plane with my family. The bugger could wipe us ALL out in a second.

I certainly don't want him to be exhausted and error prone.
Why would YOU?
 
Meccano said:
I spend a fair bit of my spare time around airports, and hanging out with aviation-minded people. I have more than enough flight hours to hold a Commercial Licence myself. So I'm speaking from firsthand experience, not hearsay.
A few of your innacurate points would indicate to me that your young 'friend' has that 'romanticised idea' of the job I mentioned earlier? He's certainly given you a few bum steers I'm afraid.

If he told you the job entails '15 minutes' work 'at each end' then he is misinformed. That would mean you are too.
You mentioned 3.5 hour flights? Ryanair doesn't fly anywhere over 2 hours away (at present) and the VAST majority of their flights are 1 hour in length.

Clubman: The 200 hours minimum for a licence allows you to get a job and sit on the flight deck - which is then meant to be an APPRETICESHIP toward a Command.
It DOES NOT mean that you are a fully fledged pilot.

These licencing rules were drafted 60 years ago when it took decades to get a Command. They've never been brought up to date to reflect the low Command times in modern low cost airlines.

The fact that your 200 hour co-pilot has a very low experienced Captain (1500 hours) sitting beside him is a worry. The Captain isn't there to teach him to fly, he's there to do the job of getting the aircraft safely from A to B. The new guy hopefully learns over time - by observation. In other words, over time - he gains experience.

Usually things work out with this arrangement, as long as the flight is routine.
It's when an emergency situation arises that the cracks will show.

Regarding the 'brain surgeon' comment. It was an analogy. You interpret it to mean all pilots are brain surgeons. Funny!
What I was actually getting at was - I would prefer to have a 40 year old brain surgeon with 20 years experience poking inside my head than an 18 year old straight out of med school.

But yeah, I guess there IS a big difference between piloting a jet and being a brain surgeon.....if the surgeon screws up the brain surgery he'll still go home to the wife and kids for tea.

But if a pilot hits a mountain in an aircraft doing 600mph...he ain't going home for tea, nor are the other 120 odd souls on board.

So, come to think of it....I WANT my pilot to be even BETTER than a brain surgeon when I step on his plane with my family. The bugger could wipe us ALL out in a second.

I certainly don't want him to be exhausted and error prone.
Why would YOU?
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We obviously disagree here Meccano, but several things, firstly, Ryanair do fly for longer than 2 hrs, I was in Faro with them last month and it's timetabled for approx 3hrs.
As for the more than 15 mins each side, it was probably an exaggeration, but seriously pilots in danger of falling asleep as they're overworked (especially if most flights are 1 hr long - which I do not accept at all actually, maybe 10yrs ago, but not anymore).
As for the lack of hrs, surely if a guy sits beside a captain for 1300 hrs, he'll hopefully be able to pick up enough to fly himself, it's hardly rocket science! I appreciate your concerns re emergency situations, but in fairness to Ryanair, their record is exemplary in this regard (as far as I know). Also in regard to this, what standards of training do other airlines insist on for their pilots, given that the current rules are antiquated.
 
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