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  #41  
Old 26-11-2011, 07:47 AM
Sunny Sunny is offline
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Originally Posted by RonanC View Post
Sunny, I am in no way defending Kevin Cardiff's actions or his role in the decisions made over the past 10 years, but he took over as Secretary General of the Dept. of Finance in Feb 2010. It appears from the bits that have come out that the Department were very much against a bank guarantee. In the end, the blanket bank guarantee was scrutinised and approved by the houses of the oireachtas and not the Dept. of Finance. If anything, those elected to the Dail and Seanad were much more responsible than Kevin Cardiff was. We also must remember why the guarantee was put in place. The banks met with Lenihan and Cowen, told them of their serious issues and that they would go bang and bring the country with them unless Government stepped in. The banks also lied about their financial situation and I'd imagine if Lenihan knew the full picture as we do now, a blanket bank guarantee would have been the last thing he would propose.
But its not just the Guarantee. Before he became secretary general, wasn't he in charge of taxation and financial services in the Department. I don't know what his record is exactly but he must have been involved in the reckless taxation policies of the boom years and I presume he was involved in the reckless regulation of banks. Now I am sure he can wash his hands and blame politicians and the regulator but the simple fact is that he was there earning a huge salary. He has questions to answer especially if he wants a job in Europe. Also his performance the other week in front of the Dail Committee was awful.

Like I said, he has probably done the State some great service and maybe it is very harsh but the simple fact is that the Government want him out of the Department of Finance for some reason. My problem is that if they think he has done something wrong or hasn't performed, it should be dealt with here instead of just transferring him to a plum job in Europe just so they can avoid holding a senior civil servant to account.
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  #42  
Old 26-11-2011, 08:17 AM
Complainer Complainer is offline
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Wasn't it nice of Kevin to 'liberate' the Stock Exchange from the pain of a tiny commission, and free up Sean Quinn to go hell for leather on his greedy high-risk CFD attack on Anglo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...308188250.html

Hope it was a nice lunch.
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  #43  
Old 26-11-2011, 11:05 AM
DerKaiser DerKaiser is offline
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Originally Posted by Complainer View Post
Wasn't it nice of Kevin to 'liberate' the Stock Exchange from the pain of a tiny commission, and free up Sean Quinn to go hell for leather on his greedy high-risk CFD attack on Anglo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...308188250.html

Hope it was a nice lunch.
The existence of CFDs or whether the tax system fails to discourage them are relatively indirect issues compared to the reckless behaviour of Quinn in his investments, Anglo in its lending and the regulator in his supervision.

Quinn borrowed to invest, the means by which he did this was made more efficient by the existence of CFDs, but banning/discouraging CFDs for this reason would be akin to not granting planning for high buildings in case people threw themselves off the top.
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  #44  
Old 26-11-2011, 11:48 AM
Complainer Complainer is offline
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Originally Posted by DerKaiser View Post
Quinn borrowed to invest, the means by which he did this was made more efficient by the existence of CFDs, but banning/discouraging CFDs for this reason would be akin to not granting planning for high buildings in case people threw themselves off the top.
So what do we do to stop another Quinn/Anglo/CFD happening?
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  #45  
Old 26-11-2011, 12:51 PM
mandelbrot mandelbrot is offline
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Originally Posted by Complainer View Post
Wasn't it nice of Kevin to 'liberate' the Stock Exchange from the pain of a tiny commission, and free up Sean Quinn to go hell for leather on his greedy high-risk CFD attack on Anglo.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...308188250.html

Hope it was a nice lunch.
20/20 Hindsight is a great thing.
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  #46  
Old 26-11-2011, 01:56 PM
DerKaiser DerKaiser is offline
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Originally Posted by Complainer View Post
So what do we do to stop another Quinn/Anglo/CFD happening?
The likes of Quinn can do what they want with their own money be it CFDs or whatever else. The problem was he used someone else's money, and that someone else was an "institution of systemic importance". So we identify every "institution of systemic importance" and properly regulate their risk controls. There might be other reasons to tax CFDs but not to indirectly compensate for lack of decent regulation.
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  #47  
Old 27-11-2011, 08:40 AM
onq onq is offline
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I disagree with the principle that people "can do what they like with their own money", if that means moving it out of Irish accounts and putting the rest of us taxpayers further in debt.
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  #48  
Old 27-11-2011, 10:45 AM
Purple Purple is offline
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Originally Posted by onq View Post
I disagree with the principle that people "can do what they like with their own money", if that means moving it out of Irish accounts and putting the rest of us taxpayers further in debt.
Do you think the state should have the right to stop people moving their own money to another country?
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  #49  
Old 27-11-2011, 01:08 PM
DerKaiser DerKaiser is offline
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Originally Posted by Purple View Post
Do you think the state should have the right to stop people moving their own money to another country?
Bring back the Berlin wall! Presumably people could not move either....
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  #50  
Old 28-11-2011, 10:18 AM
onq onq is offline
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No.

Not when its costing the taxpayer billions in a recession in increased borrowing to recapitalize the banks
Not when the only reason the money-movers money remained "safe" in the first place was the state guarantee - again backed by taxpayers.
How do these people repay the taxpayer?
By forcing the state to borrow more.

With freedom comes responsibility.
People are quick to trade on the former
Precious little of the latter being shown these days.

Pay your debts, honour your commitments and support those who have supported you.
Its a fairly clear line to follow and those who don't will sooner or later feel the flat of the blade.
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  #51  
Old 28-11-2011, 10:32 AM
kennyb3 kennyb3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onq View Post
No.

Not when its costing the taxpayer billions in a recession in increased borrowing to recapitalize the banks
Not when the only reason the money-movers money remained "safe" in the first place was the state guarantee - again backed by taxpayers.
How do these people repay the taxpayer?
By forcing the state to borrow more.

With freedom comes responsibility.
People are quick to trade on the former
Precious little of the latter being shown these days.

Pay your debts, honour your commitments and support those who have supported you.
Its a fairly clear line to follow and those who don't will sooner or later feel the flat of the blade.
So we should keep money here to fund debt forgiveness:
Financial and economic debates and public consultations > Resolving the mortgage arrears crisis > ONQ's proposal for Universal Debt Forgiveness

Sign me up.

Moving money creates liquidity problems at best, it doesnt add to the deficit nor does it add to the national debt.
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  #52  
Old 28-11-2011, 10:35 AM
Superman Superman is offline
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Originally Posted by onq View Post
No.

Not when its costing the taxpayer billions in a recession in increased borrowing to recapitalize the banks
Not when the only reason the money-movers money remained "safe" in the first place was the state guarantee - again backed by taxpayers.
Actually savings were protected before the state guarantee - up to €100,000.

Also the state guarantee was introduced for Fianna Fail's benefit - not for the benefit of the savers. (And if you are being generous - for the benefit of the state).

Thirdly the cost of recapitalising the banks is due to Fianna Fail's decision to guarantee bondholders - and especially existing bondholders, for their own reasons.

EDIT:
If you accept that the guarantee allows the government now to have additional rights regarding citizens' deposits, then surely by the same logic, if I stand outside your house all night long (unasked for), I can then claim the keys to your house in the morning. You benefited from having me there in front of your house all night after all.
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  #53  
Old 28-11-2011, 12:17 PM
ajapale ajapale is offline
 
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Topic Reminder: Who IS Kevin Cardiff and why was Nessa Childers threatened?
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  #54  
Old 29-11-2011, 10:02 AM
onq onq is offline
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Thanks Ajay.
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