why is it so hard here for people to do the decent thing??

N

NOAH

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We seem to live in a country with no integrity in all disciplines, eg religious, legal, accountancy, political, medical, construction, etc etc.

Why is it so hard for people who should know better not to do the decent thing? All the actions that are reported are scary but no one ever, ever, gets punished!!

I find it depressing and ashamed that we could stand by and let the country develop as it has for what???

And each day we are met with more and more revelations about how certain individiuals are reaping the financial benefits that they themselves must know they are in no way entitled to. How can they live with themselves and see the majority of their compatriots suffer? What an example to set for the youth!!

noah
 
Because lets be honest, its all about money, money, money.

The likes of Ivor Callely and all the MPs/TDs we have heard about in recent times always come out with the "I wasnt breaking the rules, everything I applied for I was entitled to" line disguised the fact that they really shouldn't have been doign what they were doing if they had any morals at all.

Sometimes you don't have to try to claim for everything you can, perhaps just what you need.

But as you hinted at, there are people like these at all levels of our society, and its often the incredibly wealthy who know how best to play the system.
 
We live in a rights based "society" which has thrown responsibility out the window.
 
shnaek said:
We live in a rights based "society" which has thrown responsibility out the window.
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Excellent point.

We don't have any real understanding that there is a contract between the state and the individual that confers rights and responsibilities, or duties, on both.
The state has failed the individual (corruption and incompetence on the part of politicians and public servants, massive waste of tax payers money, criminal justice system that doesn't punish the guilty etc) and many individuals have failed the state (corruption, tax evasion, general criminality etc).
We have no civic pride and regard those that do in other countries with derision.
 
There is no sense of personal morality or integrity here . sad but true
 
Purple said:
We have no civic pride and regard those that do in other countries with derision.
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Funny, OT I know, but I was reading a great book recently; The Truth About The Irish and the author was making this very point. His theory was that the Irish sometimes behave as though the country isn't theirs simply because for a long time, it wasn't.

Reminds me of a difference someone once pointed out between the English and Irish: An Englishman will say what he wants but always do the right thing; an Irishman will do what he wants but always say the right thing. :)
 
Purple said:
The state has failed the individual (corruption and incompetence on the part of politicians and public servants, massive waste of tax payers money, criminal justice system that doesn't punish the guilty etc) and many individuals have failed the state (corruption, tax evasion, general criminality etc). We have no civic pride and regard those that do in other countries with derision.
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I agree with this and for evidence look at paragraph 19 on page 70 of the McCracken Tribunal report on Michael Lowry, then look at the number of votes he got in the 97, 2002 and 2007 elections..hard to be outraged about Callely when Lowry never spent even one second behind bars...
 
shnaek said:
We live in a rights based "society" which has thrown responsibility out the window.
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Tell that to the many people with disabilities in Ireland who have effectively no rights to decent medical treatment, education or access to general public services.
 
Complainer said:
Tell that to the many people with disabilities in Ireland who have effectively no rights to decent medical treatment, education or access to general public services.
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They have got rights but often the services just aren't up to scratch. That's due to incompetence and bad allocation of resources rather than lack of resources.
 
What I can't understand about the callaly case, is why the reciepts were not checked? At work if we claim expenses, all of our reciepts must be supplied and they are checked...
 
pinkyBear said:
What I can't understand about the callaly case, is why the reciepts were not checked? At work if we claim expenses, all of our reciepts must be supplied and they are checked...
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Ah but you see, you are making the mistake of comparing yourself to a politician. They can't be expected to worry about things like receipts and stuff. That's just crazy. They are busy doing important legislative work.
 
Sunny said:
Ah but you see, you are making the mistake of comparing yourself to a politician. They can't be expected to worry about things like receipts and stuff. That's just crazy. They are busy doing important legislative work.
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I know, I know...:) I'm sure though a public service worker is assigned to sign off on expences, where are their auditing procedures.

I work in the private sector, and lets be fair, our company had to address expenses, as there were issues with a section of the company putting in mad expenses.. So the reality is where people can get away with stuff, they will try, politician or not..

I just cant see why there were no controls, or checks. Now I am not for a second condoning what Callaly did, he knew he could get away with it...
 
Purple said:
We don't have any real understanding that there is a contract between the state and the individual that confers rights and responsibilities, or duties, on both.
The state has failed the individual (corruption and incompetence on the part of politicians and public servants, massive waste of tax payers money, criminal justice system that doesn't punish the guilty etc) and many individuals have failed the state (corruption, tax evasion, general criminality etc).
We have no civic pride and regard those that do in other countries with derision.
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That sums it up in one. And in those rare pockets where you do see civic pride it really shines through - by virtue of the fact it is so rare here.

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country - though we live in different times now, and as you pointed out neither side does much for the other these days.
 
Complainer said:
Tell that to the many people with disabilities in Ireland who have effectively no rights to decent medical treatment, education or access to general public services.
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They have every right to decent medical treatment etc. just as we all have the right to decent services, but those with responsibility to provide it have left us down.
 
YOBR said:
I agree with this and for evidence look at paragraph 19 on page 70 of the McCracken Tribunal report on Michael Lowry, then look at the number of votes he got in the 97, 2002 and 2007 elections..hard to be outraged about Callely when Lowry never spent even one second behind bars...
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Have to say that I used to live in that constituency. While I never voted for the man, he and his cohorts (i.e. councilllors loyal to him) were streets ahead of his fellow politicians for getting things done on a community and personal basis.

If there was any event that had a gang of politicians jumping on the bandwagon, most of the time he genuinely deserved to be there. The other thing was (from what I heard) he kept in touch with matters whereas the rest of the politicians around that area would deal with things in the first instance and then bugger off.

Like I said I never voted for him but from all accounts he got things done! (Not that anything he done wrong should be forgiven because of his constituency work!!!!!)
 
shnaek said:
They have every right to decent medical treatment etc. just as we all have the right to decent services, but those with responsibility to provide it have left us down.
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They don't even have the right to get in the door of the hospital. Their rights for access to services only stretch to 'reasonable accommodation at nominal cost' under the Equal Status Acts. Many older buildings (including lots of schools, hospitals, public offices) are not accessible to disabled people, and they have no right of access. Public bodies are supposed to ensure that all buildings are accessible by 2015, but just wait for the 'we've no money' excuses to start coming out as we hit that deadline. Disabled students are frequently ghettoised to the nearest VEC/community school, as other schools come up with all kinds of creative excuses as to why they can't accept them. Disabled children 6-18 years don't even have a right to have their needs assessed, as the needs assessment process under the Disability Act has only been applied to 0-5 years so far (5 years after implementation).

Disabled people have little or no rights in Ireland today.
 
To be honest, I think most people are so fed up to the back teeth with politicians and their ways.

Just take that Healy Ray character that was on The Last Word tonight.

Typically, like 99.9% of them, he tried to defend his expenses simply on the basis that "the system allows it". And of course he did the usual thing of not being able to give a YES or NO answer. They are masters at it. They stretch out the interview and answer things they aren't asked, so that the time will run out and they can escape answering the big one.

I think these Healy Ray guys are held in fairly high esteem for politicians. yet even they stand by the system, as it is in their benefit.

Again its a case of people taking what they can, even if its not needed.

And on the subject of politicians, I would love to see the day when politicians are told "If you don't give me an answer to the specific question I asked then I'm cutting you off", and then actually do it. How sweet would that be?
 
Most progressive laws that have come in to place in Ireland in the last 20 years have stemmed from the EU. Lets fact it our Politicans are doing very little legislative work!

I would also propose a 10 year gap before a TD's family member can run for public office. This would reduce the amount of Healy- Ray, Aherne, Flynn so called political dynasties emerging or should I say enduring. Any family member who is genuinely interested in a political position could earn valuable experience in the real world before entering politics.

Are there many other countries where seats would be in effect passed on to sons/ daughters / brothers etc?

Not sure I would agree with the above Irish / English statement, they have had their fair share of expenses scandles over the past year too! We are both nations populated by very docile people though!
 
On the civic pride thing, lets not be too down on ourselves. There are loads of people who keep their property well, dont litter, participate in Tidy Towns and community activities (sport or otherwise).

I think many people are acutely aware that their best chance of having a good lifestyle is by lookin after No. 1, as opposed to relying on social welfare or any communist type philiosophy. This mostly manifests itself in people working hard and being careful with money.

However others, a small minority I should think, take it to extremes by trying to milk the system, either by what they take (expenses, SW fraud etc) or what they refuse to give (tax evasion).

And then theres the grey areas, e.g. non means tested SW. So we as a family are entitled to childrens allowance, we'd manage without it, but we pay plenty of tax so its one of they few "free" benefits we get back. We claim it because we are entitled to it, after all we're lookin after No 1 (i.e. not expecting the state to look after us overall). So would it be civic minded/patriotic to not claim it? Maybe, but should the proverbial hit the fan in a financial sense (always a possibility), will any personal kudos we felt for not claiming what we were entitled to then help us - No.
 
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