Trinity to use alternative admission criteria

Perhaps this kind of attitude helps explain why Trinity continues to slip down the University rankings worldwide
 
I think it's a good idea.
A students ability to study and study environment at 15 or 16 (and before then) determines how they will do at 18 in their leaving cert. Their family circumstances, the education level of their parents, and the parents interest in supporting their child, and the level of grinds and other supports the student gets as well as the peer group within their school will have a massive and fundamental impact on the results they get in their leaving cert. Their innate intelligence is of course a factor but it is secondary to their environment.
The idea that a student who is supported in that way at 15 or 16 will in some way make a better engineer or doctor or psychologist than someone who didn’t get that support at 15 or 16 is in itself elitist. What Trinity is doing is a good idea and, if administered properly, will make it more inclusive for people from more deprived social backgrounds.
As for a person who headed up the CAO thinking moving away from the CAO based admission system is a bad idea, well there’s a strong element of “he would say that, wouldn’t he”.

The reason that University standards are falling in Ireland is lack of funding, grade inflation, a lack of robust research and collaboration between academia and industry and many lecturers that aren’t quite up to the mark.
 
Purple said:
I think it's a good idea.
A students ability to study and study environment at 15 or 16 (and before then) determines how they will do at 18 in their leaving cert. Their family circumstances, the education level of their parents, and the parents interest in supporting their child, and the level of grinds and other supports the student gets as well as the peer group within their school will have a massive and fundamental impact on the results they get in their leaving cert. Their innate intelligence is of course a factor but it is secondary to their environment.
The idea that a student who is supported in that way at 15 or 16 will in some way make a better engineer or doctor or psychologist than someone who didn’t get that support at 15 or 16 is in itself elitist.
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This is probably true.

Purple said:
What Trinity is doing is a good idea and, if administered properly, will make it more inclusive for people from more deprived social backgrounds.
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I fail to understand how you come to this conclusion. A person supported as you outline is much more likely to do well on at least 2 of the 4 alternative criteria, the essay (they can pay to have it written professionally) and the social achievements, (music lessons anyone)


Purple said:
As for a person who headed up the CAO thinking moving away from the CAO based admission system is a bad idea, well there’s a strong element of “he would say that, wouldn’t he”.
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The CAO is one of our few public bodies that has never been tainted by corruption. No one gets into college In Ireland based on personal contacts, this is mostly due to the professionalism of John McAvoy. And quite different from the system in the US and Britain. And could not be maintained in a situation where an essay or personal statement or interview forms part of the admission criteria.
 
cremeegg said:
I fail to understand how you come to this conclusion. A person supported as you outline is much more likely to do well on at least 2 of the 4 alternative criteria, the essay (they can pay to have it written professionally) and the social achievements, (music lessons anyone)
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The college can take the social and personal circumstances of the individual into account when assessing their essay and social achievements.

cremeegg said:
The CAO is one of our few public bodies that has never been tainted by corruption. No one gets into college In Ireland based on personal contacts, this is mostly due to the professionalism of John McAvoy. And quite different from the system in the US and Britain. And could not be maintained in a situation where an essay or personal statement or interview forms part of the admission criteria.
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What about the college of surgeons?
Anyway, because something is not corrupt it does not follow that it is necessarily fair.

We levy higher levels of taxation on people who earn more because we take the view (rightly) that people who have less economically should be helped by people who have more yet that economic inequality is not a root cause, it is a symptom. The solution is education. If we could level the playing field there then we wouldn't have to expend so much time and money treating the symptoms.

Welfare will never create a more socially or economically fair and equal society. Only education will do that.
 
Purple said:
The college can take the social and personal circumstances of the individual into account when assessing their essay and social achievements.
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That's fine in theory, but it must be measured by objective criteria that cannot be gamed. These proposals fail to achieve that. Judging a personal statement is very subjective and kids will get involved in "achievements" just to improve their chances of admission.


Purple said:
Anyway, because something is not corrupt it does not follow that it is necessarily fair.
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Thats true, however the proposed alternatives seem to be both corrupt, (based on some admissions persons opinion of an essay, which is easily open to corruption) and unfair, (explicitly making admissions criteria lower for some schools that others).


Purple said:
Welfare will never create a more socially or economically fair and equal society. Only education will do that.
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I absolutely agree with this. Corrupting third level education will not create a fairer society either.

I would go further and say that the emphasis on inclusion at the expense of excellence at second level has reduced education's role in making a fairer society.

Many years ago with a good second level education I went to work in London, I discovered somewhat to my surprise that I had a far better education than most of my English work colleagues. That was from an inner city CBS. I don't think that would be true for todays Irish school leavers. If education isn't challenging it won't function as a force for fairness in society either.
 
cremeegg said:
If education isn't challenging it won't function as a force for fairness in society either.
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I think that's a very good point cremeegg. I think what Trinity are attempting to achieve here is worthy but completely agree that their method in this attempt is very flawed. Personally I can remember sitting an admissions test for Bolton St back in the day and I have no problem with universities using this as a means of selecting students. Everyone who achieved a certain level of points in the Leaving were entitled to sit this test. The test can be tailored to ensure it identifies those more suited to the course.
Whilst I can see some merit in the argument that better second level schools offer a chance of better points and wealthier parents do likewise (via grinds and such), ultimately if a student really wants to progress to 3rd level they can achieve a certain level through hard work and dedication. The approach by Trinity seems far too open for unworthy students to be admitted imho.
 
cremeegg said:
That's fine in theory, but it must be measured by objective criteria that cannot be gamed.
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Why? What's wrong with the subjective opinion of a professional educator?
cremeegg said:
...Judging a personal statement is very subjective and kids will get involved in "achievements" just to improve their chances of admission.....
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You seem to be approaching this from the stance that this admission process is designed for the posh thickies (undoubtedly connected to the admissions people) to circumvent the CAO process - that they will pay for their essay to be written, get through their Grade 8 in piano and do social good deeds to pad out their CV - all to avoid studying hard enough to get into Trinity the CAO route. Would you be happier if Trinity explicitly said that this was a social inclusion program deliberately targetting disadvantaged areas? I have no problem with some level (and this is a very limited experiment) of positive discrimination towards students who don't have access to the best schools, a positive study environment or limitless grinds.
 
Ceist Beag said:
Whilst I can see some merit in the argument that better second level schools offer a chance of better points and wealthier parents do likewise (via grinds and such), ultimately if a student really wants to progress to 3rd level they can achieve a certain level through hard work and dedication. The approach by Trinity seems far too open for unworthy students to be admitted imho.
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It is far easier for a student with well educated parents who value education to be "worthy" than a student with uneducated parent s who don't value education. That doesn't mean that one is more intelligent than the other.

My point is that some students have a bigger hill to climb in order to get to 3rd level. By the time people are 18 or 19 they have a better idea of what they want to do in life and, more importantly, what they don't want to be.
the sons or daughters of lawyers or doctors or company directors are not more "worthy" of access to university than the sons or daughters of the long term unemployed simply because they received more points in their Leaving Cert.

The current system perpetuates inequality of opportunity and our government thinks that giving people bigger hand-outs solves the problem. They don't seem to realise that low incomes are only one of the problems caused by poverty. They forget about the dignity of work, self respect and self reliance, the civil engagement of the individual who sees tax deductions from their wages and so cares how their money is spent and the aspiration to a better future for their children.
 
orka said:
You seem to be approaching this from the stance that this admission process is designed for the posh thickies (undoubtedly connected to the admissions people) to circumvent the CAO process - that they will pay for their essay to be written, get through their Grade 8 in piano and do social good deeds to pad out their CV - all to avoid studying hard enough to get into Trinity the CAO route. Would you be happier if Trinity explicitly said that this was a social inclusion program deliberately targetting disadvantaged areas? I have no problem with some level (and this is a very limited experiment) of positive discrimination towards students who don't have access to the best schools, a positive study environment or limitless grinds.
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Exactly; this is a programme to get students from socially disadvantaged areas into college. It is not some backdoor system for exploitation by some old-boy network.
 
Purple said:
My point is that some students have a bigger hill to climb in order to get to 3rd level. By the time people are 18 or 19 they have a better idea of what they want to do in life and, more importantly, what they don't want to be.
the sons or daughters of lawyers or doctors or company directors are not more "worthy" of access to university than the sons or daughters of the long term unemployed simply because they received more points in their Leaving Cert.
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Full agreement with that Purple, it's the same point I was making with regards to using admission tests.
 
orka said:
Why? What's wrong with the subjective opinion of a professional educator?
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Many things;

Professional educators are no less biased in their judgements than other people.

They are as susceptible to outside influence as other people. Anyone with the power to accept some candidates and reject others WILL get phone calls from government ministers telling them to admit certain candidates.

They are no less susceptible that other people to outright bribery.

No matter how excellently and honestly and perhaps courageously they do their job, their subjective opinion, cannot be more than that, a subjective opinion.

In my opinion it is not good enough to reject someones application for a place at college because some admissions person thinks subjectively that some other candidate is more deserving.


Enough cursing the darkness. My suggestion to improve the situation is more resources and more challenges at primary and second level.
 
Purple said:
Exactly; this is a programme to get students from socially disadvantaged areas into college. It is not some backdoor system for exploitation by some old-boy network.
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It may not be intended as such but that is exactly how it will end up.
 
cremeegg said:
Many things;

Professional educators are no less biased in their judgements than other people.

They are as susceptible to outside influence as other people. Anyone with the power to accept some candidates and reject others WILL get phone calls from government ministers telling them to admit certain candidates.

They are no less susceptible that other people to outright bribery.

No matter how excellently and honestly and perhaps courageously they do their job, their subjective opinion, cannot be more than that, a subjective opinion.

In my opinion it is not good enough to reject someones application for a place at college because some admissions person thinks subjectively that some other candidate is more deserving.
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All of those points can be made in relation to the same educators when they are correcting the exams of students who are already in college. And yet the sky has not fallen in.
 
Purple said:
All of those points can be made in relation to the same educators when they are correcting the exams of students who are already in college. And yet the sky has not fallen in.
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The sky has not fallen in, but TCD, and other Irish colleges have plummeted in the world education rankings.
 
T McGibney said:
The sky has not fallen in, but TCD, and other Irish colleges have plummeted in the world education rankings.
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They have, using our current CAO system of entry.
The problem in Ireland is common in smaller countries with small universities. Ours are under funded while at the same time staff are relatively well paid. Lack of research, lack of tie-in's with industry and inconsistent teaching standards all all contributing factors. I would suggest letting a few students in from West Finglas or the rough parts of Tallaght who didn't get the necessary COA points is not going to impact significantly one way or the other on international rankings.
 
Purple said:
letting a few students in from West Finglas or the rough parts of Tallaght who didn't get the necessary COA points
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Except that the "Special circumstances" criteria listed in Mr McAvoy's article on the topic don't include any mention of disadvantaged geographic backgrounds.
 
T McGibney said:
Except that the "Special circumstances" criteria listed in Mr McAvoy's article on the topic don't include any mention of disadvantaged geographic backgrounds.
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Yea, but Trinity can't say they are putting special admissions criteria in place to give skangers a chance to get into their university! :D
 
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