Army Officer has to stay 3years for every year of degree course (was verbal contract)

Hi,
I am in the army and have been sent, ike most young officers, to university to complete a degree course. The army policy on this scheme is officers must undertake to serve 3 years post graduation for every year spent in college (so 12 long hard years for me!).

Thing is, I have never been asked to sign a contract and I have never had the terms of this contract explained to me. As you can imagine, I dont really wanna stay around in the army til Im forty! Do i have any legal basis for getting outta this "contract" before my 12 year stint is up?

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

Can't imagine they can hold you to something you haven't signed upto (though i'm open to correction by those in the law business).

I'm astonished they're happy to pay for this without something signed though, is this a common practise or did you just slip through the net?

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

when you graduated / passed out did you not sign anything? Like you might have signed to conform to being a commissioned officer and thus to conforming to terms and conditions so to speak?

as an aside
You mean to tell me you got through the Curragh and were not completely and utterly brainwashed?? From my time in NUIG I think you are a very rare breed altogether!

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

lol nelly, we´re not all brainwashed(it wears off after a while anyway!) Nah, didnt slip through the net, there is 2 classes in galway at the moment who were never asked to sign this contract - some of the new lads have had to, but for some reason not us. In fact we never signed any kind of employment contract at all! I presume the army just thought we would be so enraptured by the job we wouldnt need a contract!

I know I prob owe them some time and/or Some money, but 12 years just isnt equitable. Do i have a leg to stand on if and when I want out?

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

At worst you could just pay them back for the fees, maybe.

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

12 yeas is a long time and seems a little unreasonable to me. Normally I'd say they can't enforce it if you didn't sign anything but there are all sorts of contracts, written, verbal and otherwise, that I know nothing about. Can you still 'buy' yourself out of the Army? That used to be the case. Failing that you could always have a nervous breakdown and they'd pension you off!! Not that I'd advocate this?????

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

In connection with third level training, personnel will be required to subscribe to an undertaking (or
undertakings), available on request, that, in the event of them leaving the Defence Forces voluntarily
at any time after they have commenced the course and before they have served in the Permanent
Defence Force for a minimum number of years reckoned from the date of completion of their third
level training, they will refund the cost of such training to the Minister for Defence including the
cost of pay and allowances paid to them during the period of attendance at the course.

Click to expand...

As I understand it, it basically means you will repay the cost of the course if you leave within your fixed term commission i.e. 12/15 years. 3/4 years in NUIG does not count as military service, AFAIK.

However, if you were not available to sign the contract I am sure it was "handaled appropriatly" for you!!​

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

seaners said:

hi, I am in the army and have been sent,like most young officers, to university to complete a degree course. The army policy on this scheme is officers must undertake to serve 3 years post graduation for every year spent in college(so 12 long hard years for me!). Thing is, I have never been asked to sign a contract and I have never had the terms of this contract explained to me. As you can imagine, I dont really wanna stay around in the army til Im forty! Do i have any legal basis for getting outta this "contract" before my 12 year stint is up?

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Eh,did no one tell you that you join the army for a career.I can't believe you got into the cadets and you don't even know what's involved in the army,are you related to someone high up by any chance ?
You have to do the 12years to get the pension AFAIK,sounds to me your in the wrong job for you.

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

thewatcher said:

,sounds to me your in the wrong job for you.

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No offence but i think he had copped that - he has stated he wants out before 12 (or 16 years are up).

I would thread carefully and maybe ask a solicitor to look into it - ones based around the barracks where you are based or Renmore - who knows they may have had a fella like you in before.

on another level - you got paid to go to college, and digs and grub and a job in the holidays, I feel you should repay a bit of this money - its taxpayers after all, but that is not the question asked so mods ignore.

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

Well Watcher, despite you inference to the contrary I dont hav any friends in high places. I am aware I cant just walk away scot free without paying something back and I have given nothing but my best since the day I joined. My point was,and is, 12 years more is a long time to be locked into a job, particularly a job I signed up for in my my teens(im now in my mid 20s). Its not unreasonable for people´s interests and aptitudes to change over the years, and what suits a 19 year old might not suit a 38 year old(the age I will be when my "contract" expires!)

So I guess I can buy my way out, or go down the nervous breakdown route(getting pretty close anyway)

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

Could leaving before the 12 year term has expired be equated with desertion? Is that an offence in Ireland?

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

CCOVICH said:

Could leaving before the 12 year term has expired be equated with desertion? Is that an offence in Ireland?

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If he leaves without medical grounds or 'buying' himself out...I'm sure it is considered desertion. I don't think they shoot you for it anymore though.

Re: Verbal Employment Contract Nightmare

seaners said:

hi, I am in the army and have been sent,like most young officers, to university to complete a degree course.

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Did you have any choice in the matter? Did you request that you attend the degree course?

Re: Army Officer has to stay 3years for every year of degree course (was verbal contr

Hi seaners,

I have changed the title to reflect the question more accurately.

Have a look at this post which relates to army pensions but which illustrates the difference between the way things are done in the army and civilian life.

You should contact RACO with your query as Im sure it is one they are dealing with all the time.

aj

In relation to discussions about contract of employement, members of the defence forces are explicitly excluded from the leglislation.

from SIPTU:

Minimum Notice & Terms Of Employment Acts, 1973-2001
Origin And Purpose Of The Act

Until the enactment of the Minimum Notice & Terms Of Employment Act, 1973, obligation to give notice to or entitlement to receive notice from employers was a matter for common law or settled through agreement between the parties.
The Acts lay down minimum periods of notice to be given by employers and workers when terminating a contract of employment.
Those sections of the Acts that related to information about terms of employment - Sections 9 and 10 - have been repealed and replaced by the Terms Of Employment (Information) Acts, 1994-2001.
Who Is Covered By The Acts?

The Acts apply in most employments to employees who have at least thirteen weeks continuous service with the same employer.
The Acts do not apply to:-

immediate family of the employer provided they reside with them and are employed in the same private house or farm;
established civil servants;
members of the Permanent Defence Forces (except temporary staff in the Army Nursing Service);
members of the Garda Síochána;
seamen signing on under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894.

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hi there seaners i seen youre post and i can completely understand that you have changed attitudes about the p.d.f. since you joined in you're late teens. now I'm not sure about this but would i be right in saying that when an officer has 12 years service done anyway that he qualifies for a reduced pension anyway without having to give 21 years service and if this is so why not just ride out you're 12 years and be sure of that reduced pension then when you have this done try work on trying to buy you're way out at least you'll have the brown envelope in you're back pocket and if you're lucky maybe the qualification that you're after getting in U.S.A.C. will stand to you in civvy street and i have never known an officer to do badly on leaving the army.

I know you probably see that another 12 or 14 years more would restrict you on doing other things in you're professional life but why not just try to establish yourself in you're qualification in this period so that when you leave after you're 21 years that you're going to walk straight into a very good position for youreself without having to start from scratch again.

May i add this is only a suggestion. I can empathise with you're situation if you don't see this career as you're life calling. I am a serving soldier myself not of the officer rank though. I am just coming up to my 21 and starting to try some things out in civvy street as i don't want to be in the job until 60 years of age. I want to go out fit and healthy and still be able to enjoy life. I have bought some property overseas and its going pretty well for me, but i have no intention of leaving just yet until i'm sure of where i'm going professionally.

I myself see the P.D.F. as a lifestyle choice rather than calling it a job even though i will never see officer rank i am quite happy to go along with things right now and i'm sure you will make the correct choices when you need to focus on you're future.

I'm sure there must be ways to get around the D.F.R. and as you know already most of these regulations are years old and need to be updated best of luck to you in you're quest and all the best to you

Re: Army Officer has to stay 3years for every year of degree course (was verbal contr

Thanks seanie, when I saw this post I remembered your question concerning pdf pensions (and prsa avc's) a few months ago.

Incidently what does "d.f.r." stand for?

aj

D.F.R. is Defence forces regulations that cover all military law. Most of them are outdated as they were made up in the early days of the state and resemble and probably signify some if not a lot of similaritys to the British Army. In this day and age a lot of them should be changed to reflect modern society as a lot of them are antiqueated.

Seanie, you´re dead right about using the time wisely to build up more qualifications etc, its what Im gonna do. The Army has been very good to me over the last 6 years and I dont plan on running out on them just yet either! Its true I can take early retirment in a few years, but this policy is now gone for officers commisioned from about a year or two ago. They have to stay until they are 60 or something crazy like that!!

Bummer that the army is exempt from the legislation dealing with employment contractc etc AJ. It seems a little unfair in this day and age that not only are soldiers and officers denied access to trade union membership, but arent even protected under contract law!

The DFRs are some of the craziest things you can read - regulations with a legal standing, which say stuff like requiring soldiers to maintain their issued bicycle in a clean and servicable condition(they havent been issueing bikes since the 70s/80s!!)