Joint House Ownership problems

U

urbanhell

Guest
Hi,

Just wondering if anyone has any "constructive" solutions to my problem.

I bought a hse in dublin city centre with my brother a number of years ago.
I asked my then sol. what we should do if one of us wanted to sell/buy the other out etc. and he advised that a written agreement wasnt worth anything and the best thing to do was make a verbal agreement that we would sell if either of our circumstances changed.

Roll forward a couple of years and my brother moved in his girlfriend on the condition that she paid rent to me, which she did for a number of months but then suddenly stopped paying and began threatening that she had "rights" over the house. Alarm bells ringing I confronted the brother over this and he said "tough" basically. I then said as per agreement that we should sell the house (I got a valuation of EU500k approx). He said he was not in agreement and again "tough". Following more discussions it turned out that he had married the girlfriend, so she now has legal rights over the sale consent of the house.

The situation I now find myself in is that:

I am now married and have moved out of the house (3 years)
The house has been on sale for this length of time.
My brother is paying half the mortgage and I have been paying the other half for the past 3 years on a hse I dont live in.
My sister in law is living in the house rent free for this time and has stopped contributing to the utility bills-she is now estranged from my brother.
All the bills are in my bro's name and he is in arrears to the tune of circa Eu3k, last time I checked.(I dont know the rest of his financial issues but I suspect he is in serious debt.)
The house hasnt sold and is not kept in any condition to be sold at the mo' as the two of them are happy to live in squalor and not clean it.

Has anyone got a solution to this??
The mortgagor is willing to transfer the equity into my name but not my brother so I couldnt even give him the house if I wanted to
The house it not habitable so I wouldnt be able to let a bedroom to pay for my share of the mortgage (+ its only a 2 bed and my sister in law isnt moving)
I have considered cancelling the DD to the mortgagor and letting my brother set up a DD through his bank to let him worry about paying the full mortgage but I suspect he would default and although losing the house and having to pay off the neg equity wouldnt be the worst thing, I am concerned about my credit rating when looking for a new mortgage with my wife.
I have also considered contacting the mortgagor and selling my share of the mortgage, but am not sure that would even be an option

Any views?
Financial advise?
Legal opinions?

As I said, I have had enough throwing money away at this stage!

Rsvp
 
Consult a GOOD solicitor ASAP. Don't go near the solicitor who had given you advice not to bother with a written agreement.

You are right that you want to do something about it, don't let it drag on and on, better to force the sale of the house, deal with the negative equity and damaged credit rating NOW, then let it continue as it is. At least a damaged credit rating doesn't last forever, you should be able to rebuild it gradually.

Off the top of my head two options come to mind:

- Get your brother to get his wife out of the house (if he can do that legally, perhaps as part of separation procedure), move out himself and transfer his share of the house to you.

- Force the sale of the house.
 
You need to get legal advice re: whether or not family home legislation applies to this situation. It may not as the house is not solely owned by the couple (or one of them) and was not their exclusive dwelling - i.e. you have the right to live there.

You mentioned that this is a two bedroom house. I assume that when you bought it, the arrangement was that you and your brother have a bedroom each. At the moment this estranged couple can survive indefinately in this situation as they have a bedroom each. One way of forcing the issue is to reclaim your bedroom. I assume your sister in law will not share with your brother, so she'd have no option but to leave. Once she's gone, you and your brother need to get the house sold asap and move on with your lives.
 
How about renting a room out to someone with BO and very hairy house dogs who are fond of water: water spaniels would be ideal. Rent it out for a nominal sum, say 5 euro per week.
:D

Remove the For Sale sign.

Put it back up after four months when yer wan has moved out.
 
Thanks Greta
I may see if he jumps for me taking over the utility bill debt in return for transferring over the deeds of the house but it still leaves her - I may have to pay her off too!?And sol fees!? still better than wasting Eu500/month though I suppose?! ;-(
CSIRL, I would not move back in, but I recently told her I was letting the room and she said she would move downstairs! ;-/
Galwayhous, I like your way of thinking but I may have to get rid of 3 wasters then instead of two deadbeats! ;-)

The general consensus though is I need to get more legal advice from a more competent sol!? ;-) - anyone suggest one?

Any other suggestions?
If I cant buy him and her out, should I just default or threaten to??-the problem is I would like to apply for a mortgage with my wife ASAP
Would it be worth talking to the mortgagor/offer to sell my share of the house or am I better off not highlighting the situation with the mortgagor?
 
I know that this will sound bad, but I think you should just walk away and not pay anymore on the mortgage. If you brother asks why are you not paying the mortgage:

Just turn back to him with a false grin on your face and say 'Tough, its all yours'

Interesting to see what he says, within that time frame.
 
Pope John 11 - Thanks for your input, was actually thinking the same. May threaten both of them that i will cancel the DD and that they know and i know that they will default and lose the house. It may seem drastic but something needs to give at this stage!
Maybe I will offer them EU1k each to fcuk off or face the consequences - as much as paying them anything would pi55 me off, i will prob need to offer them something??
 
Based on what you have posted, you are responsible for the mortgage on this house, along with your brother. I can't see you qualifying for a mortgage with your wife, your only hope is if she qualifies for a mortgage on her own,
 
I agree with terrysgirl, unfortunately. If he defaults any of the payments, it will appear on your ICB also. You don't want that....
 
There is only one solution to this and you won't get it on here. You need to hire a solicitor to get this sorted. A lot of what you originally posted is legally incorrect but the legal eagles on here may clarify that for you.

Also can you clarify exactly the financial details of the property. Value, who paid what, original purchase price, year, whether you can afford a full mortgage on it etc.
 
Based on what you have posted, you are responsible for the mortgage on this house, along with your brother. I can't see you qualifying for a mortgage with your wife, your only hope is if she qualifies for a mortgage on her own,

Even if his wife goes for a mortgage herself the house with existing mortgage owed by this poster will affect her application, since they are married a bank will take it into consideration in any new mortgage approval even by the wife as far as I know.
 
Thanks folks
Food for thought.
Perhaps cxlling the DD would be wreckless, but perhaps threatening to do it may be sufficient?!
As it is I dont have a lot of leaverage to get them out of the hse.

The balance on the mortgage is the same price the property agent has advised us to reduce the asking price to.The deeds of the hse are in both our names.

I could take over the mortgage and rent out the hse but only if the two of them move out as they have the hse in a state at the mo'?!

I have seen the sol. that I used when buying the hse since and he hasnt offered any soln. so do people think another sol. may help sort this mess out and is this based on anything I have written about the situation?
 
if you went back to the solicitor that advised you not to have a written agreement i'm not suprised he wasn't able to help you out- he sounds useless.
well the only good this is that the 3K utility bills are nothing to do with you if their in his name and I wouldn't worry about you them- not your problem.

However as others have said unfortunately the half the mortgage isyour problem.if you can sort this out with out without going down the legal route it would be better. could you arrange a formal meeting with your bother in a neutral location with a mediator ? at the end of the day hes family and if you get into a huge legal battle it will cause bad blood for years. but if its necessary at least you will have tried the friendly route first
 
if you went back to the solicitor that advised you not to have a written agreement i'm not suprised he wasn't able to help you out- he sounds useless.
Yes, he does sound useless, but the OP might have some leverage by going along the lines of 'Well you got me into this mess, so now you have to get me out'. If not, perhaps the OP might consider a formal complaint against this solicitor for being so dismissive when the house was being bought.
 
Yes, he does sound useless, but the OP might have some leverage by going along the lines of 'Well you got me into this mess, so now you have to get me out'. If not, perhaps the OP might consider a formal complaint against this solicitor for being so dismissive when the house was being bought.

Tis potentially a lot worse for the solicitor than just a complaint! Personally I'd regard such advice as possibly negligent.
 
Is the House registered in both you and your brother's names.
And are you full joint owners of the house or seperately as tenants in common with equal shares. This is important as if you are full joint owners, then you have to sell all the house and divide the money received equally. If you are tenants in common, then you can sell your share to anyone who would be crazy enough to buy it. Either way, his wife only has a claim on half of his share.
Once your name is on the registration, there is no way that you can be disadvantaged.
Ring the Land Registry, they are very helpful and can be quite sympathetic...perhaps they might suggest the next move.
Also contact the Law Society...they give good advice and can help you decide if you want to go further to highlight the rubbish advice your previous solicitor gave you. Dont go near that solicitor ever again.

Good luck
 
Thanks folks
We are full joint owners.
Ringing the law society & land registry sounds interesting
I have asked him to either buy me out or let me buy him out.
He doesnt have the moolah so he has agreed to take over the direct debit and pay the mortgage i full
The main issue I have to worry about now I suppose is him defaulting?!
 
Thanks folks
We are full joint owners.

Are you sure? It's usually done for spouses only, isn't it?

I am open to correction but doesn't it mean that if one or you died, the other would inherit the whole house automatically?

Did your solicitor advise you to own the house as joint owners? You REALLY need to find a GOOD solicitor!
 
He doesnt have the moolah so he has agreed to take over the direct debit and pay the mortgage i full
The main issue I have to worry about now I suppose is him defaulting?!

Based on what you've said about him, default is probably likely - particularly if he doesnt care. As you are jointly responsible for the mortgage, you will be equally responsible for any arrears, rolled over interest, legal fees etc.. You need to make sure that the mortgage is always paid in full.

Do you have the cooperation of your brother with regard to sorting the problem? This is very important, as it is a lot easier to resolve if he is cooperative.

Another suggestion is for your brother to move out of the house, and for both of you to remove all the furniture and permanently cut off all the utilities - including cutting the water at the mains. How long is she likely to last in this scenario?

Once she's gone, sell the house, discharge the mortgage and move on with your lives.
 
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