Children sick, employer says short notice for annual leave is unacceptable

Waves

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My husband and I have two children aged 4 and 2. For the past 3 weeks, they've been sick on and off with a vomiting bug followed by ear and chest infections. We both work full-time, but obviously they can't go to the childminder when they are sick, so we've been trying to juggle work between us. We don't have any family in Dublin, so don't have any other back-up support for looking after the children.

Last week, I was off with them on Monday, but had an important meeting at work on Tuesday so my husband took that off. Then, I took Wednesday off and thankfully they were better by Thursday. We both took the days off as annual leave.

My husband told his manager on Monday that he needed to take Tuesday off because the children were sick. This was the second time in the last 2 weeks that he had to do this as they were sick last week also. However, it hadn't happened before that for a very long time. My husband rarely takes sick leave.

In a meeting today, his manager told him that this short notice for the time off wasn't acceptable and that in future he should make alternative arrangements when the children were sick. He also asked why I hadn't taken the day off. He said that the company's interest had to come first.

My husband was very annoyed with this as we don't really have any other option when the children are sick. He is considering bringing the matter to a senior manager as he feels that it is unreasonable.

Has anyone any advice in relation to this situation?
 
Is this link from citizens information website any use to you?

The section on force majeure leave says the following (I've bolded the parts that seem relevant for you), although presumably things like "indispenable" and "illness" may be open to interpretation. Still it would imply to me that that is the minimum you should be entitled to.

Force majeure leave
If you have a family crisis the Parental Leave Act, 1998 as amended by the Parental Leave (Amendment) Act 2006 (pdf) gives an employee a limited right to leave from work. This is known as force majeure leave. It arises where, for urgent family reasons, the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable owing to an injury or illness of a close family member.

Force majeure leave does not give any entitlement to leave following the death of a close family member.

A close family member is defined as one of the following:

A child or adopted child of the employee

The husband/wife/partner of the employee
Parent or grandparent of the employee
Brother or sister of the employee
Person to whom the employee has a duty of care (that is, he/she is acting in loco parentis)
A person in a relationship of domestic dependency with the employee, including a same-sex partner (since 18 May 2006)
Persons of any other class (if any) as may be prescribed
The maximum amount of leave is 3 days in any 12-month period or 5 days in a 36-month period. You are entitled to be paid while you are on force majeure leave. See “How to apply” below for more details. Your employer may grant you further leave.

You are protected against unfair dismissal for taking force majeure leave or proposing to take it.

Does his contract have anything in regard to the situation of taking leave at short-notice, parental leave etc.
 
Force majeure

Hi Janet
Thanks for this feedback.

To be honest, I don't think that the kids having a chest infection constitutes a reason for force majeure leave. I know that in my work, the policy specifies it is not for a child's 'routine' illnesses such as cold and flus.

We have no problem taking annual leave when the kids are sick. The issue here is that my husband's manager is saying that he didn't give enough notice when he needed to take the day off, as he just told him on the Monday that he needed to take Tuesday off.
 
He kind of has a point, it would be hard to run a business with that sort of short notice, I know that doesn't help your position but not too many businesses are likely to give a day off on a day's notice whatever the reason. With my last employer you would be expected to give nearly 6 weeks notice and you still might not get the day off, hence I suspect the high level of sick leave!
 
The employer certainly does not have any point regardless of what laws cover this situation! An employer who thinks their business comes before a sick child should be ashamed of themselves.

The employee states they hardly takes sick leave and was happy to take it from annual allowance which in my opinion was very considerate - now where is the consideration from the employer?? My manager called me recently to say its almost December and your child will have school events etc coming up, make sure you dont miss any of them!! That's whats called an employer with respect for its employees, hence I work with a great team and enjoy my job. Like this employee I dont take time off only when absolutely necessary.
 
Lovely in theory but the bulk of employers are not like that, in an ideal world of course sick children would come before work but we live in a far from ideal world.
 
I would think your husband is right to go higher with this. The manager is on very dodgy ground asking your husband why you did not take time off. I smell sexism. Suggesting that the companys interest comes first is just silly. Peoples lives come first, we work for money to enjoy and sustain those lives.

If I were your husband I would be raising the matter with a senior manager and complaining that the person who told him the company should come first is being unreasonable.
 
Take three deep breaths and let the matter rest...

Going over the Manager's head to a senior manager on a small irritation like this is not the way to go. No senior manager worth his salt will get involved with such an issue regardless of the rights or wrongs of the situation

If you are adamant that the matter should be taken further, have another word with the immediate manager and explain how the matter has irritated you and then try to come to a mutual understanding how such matters should be handled in the future.

It really worries me how some posters on here appear so militant and ready to unleash all their bullets at the first sign of an indian on top of the hill.

Surely,people working together need to get along as well as possible. Heading into confrontation on every occasion is not very professional and not very smart
 
Manager's view, and most likely senior Managers too - your sick child is not their problem, you should have a back up plan for this eventuality. Its not fair on your co-workers to drop them in in like this.

Fellow parent's view - I have resorted to this on couple of occasions during the pre-school years - phone in sick yourself. Much less hassle.
 
It really worries me how some posters on here appear so militant and ready to unleash all their bullets at the first sign of an indian on top of the hill.

having been that militant- I wholeheartedly agree - i regret manys the bullet i sent when something got my back up.

My approach would be much the same as Sarah Mc - phone in with a "rotten dose" which might contaminate the whole office and there will be a different reception to the same issue - you taking time off.
 
When the employer says "short notice for annual leave is unacceptable" he is of course well within his rights.
 
Waves, whilst your honesty is admirable and it certainly seems you and your husband are trying to be up front and open with your employers, it isn't necessarily always the best policy. I will probably get told off for this view but if my company were acting in the manner that your husbands company are acting I would have absolutely no problem ringing in sick on the Tuesday instead of requesting a day off.
 
Sick leave v annual leave when children are sick

Thanks everyone for all the feedback.

We have been mulling over this at the weekend and to us the option of my husband calling in sick seems like the most pragmatic option in the situation that we are in. It is all very well to say that we need to make alternative arrangements but the only option we have when the kids are sick is to look after them ourselves as we don't have any other support available from family etc.

I don't think that it is reasonable that I am the only one to take time off work to look after the kids because I am their mother - but I won't start a rant on that........

It just seems a bit wrong to me that my husband is getting hassle for being honest about the situation and taking annual leave.
 
Just a suggestion in case the illnesses continue: could you advertise locally for an on-call childminder/babysitter who you could ask to step in at short notice? It might suit someone who didn't want a fulltime commitment but could do the odd day here and there with no obligation to always be available. There may also be agencies who already provide this type of service. With no family around, it would reduce the stress of worrying about short-notice childcare.
 
The employer certainly does not have any point regardless of what laws cover this situation! An employer who thinks their business comes before a sick child should be ashamed of themselves.
It is not unreasonable for an employer to expect parents to have contingency plans in place for when their children are sick. I have 4 children and both parents work. If they are sick we both still go into work. There is extra cost involved but that’s our problem. Your personal circumstances are not your employers concern and you shouldn’t make a personal problem your employers problem.


The employee states they hardly takes sick leave and was happy to take it from annual allowance which in my opinion was very considerate - now where is the consideration from the employer?? My manager called me recently to say its almost December and your child will have school events etc coming up, make sure you dont miss any of them!! That's whats called an employer with respect for its employees, hence I work with a great team and enjoy my job. Like this employee I dont take time off only when absolutely necessary.
take it that you don’t work for a small private business.
 
Alternative arrangements

Hi Purple

Could you tell me please what your alternative arrangements are?

Like most childminders, ours won't take the children when they are sick. I would be very reluctant to leave them with a stranger when they are out of sorts. My mother sometimes steps in but as she lives outside Dublin, it isn't feasible to call her in at short notice.
 
I'm with Purple on this issue. You both have responsibilities to your employers. A sick child is not their problem.

I have heard people complaining about the cost of child minding. To be abrupt (not unusual for me) a good child minder is priceless. On a tangent, parents who on their impromptu day off will still give their offspring to the childminder on the grounds that that is their job sends ripples through my system as time with your kids is priceless and you cannot get that time back.

Here are a few solutions:-

1. Use your annual leave or time worked up to care for your child.

2. Pay a good childminder, and pay well for a good service.

3. Reducing your work hours might be an option.

4. Take a Career Break.

5. Give up work completely (you will be compromising your financial independence though) and return to work years later when your kids are reared.

The solutions above may not suit you, but you asked for solutions; don't condemn me.
 
Hi Purple

Could you tell me please what your alternative arrangements are?

Like most childminders, ours won't take the children when they are sick. I would be very reluctant to leave them with a stranger when they are out of sorts. My mother sometimes steps in but as she lives outside Dublin, it isn't feasible to call her in at short notice.

We employed someone to mind the kids at home. Before that the hassle of getting someone to look after them when they were sick was way too stressful for all concerned. There is of course a financial hit but it’s far less stressful.
 
With all due respect Purple I think it is easy to take the high moral ground on this when you can afford to have someone employed to mind the kids at home. Not everyone is able to afford this. Obviously it is not the employers problem to sort this out but I would imagine that most employers take a reasonable line on this if they value their employee.
 
With all due respect Purple I think it is easy to take the high moral ground on this when you can afford to have someone employed to mind the kids at home.

+1

Even if you could afford it, having someone available at short notice, someone you trust, someone who will care for your children and not just 'mind' them, is a more difficult proposition.
 
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