Irish Times School League Table

Mel

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Yesterday's Times sold out very quickly - is there a link to an online version of the league table, or will it be a while before they make it available online?
 
Why not exactly? Do you this it is factually incorrect?

It is a list that ranks schools by the percentage of their pupils that go on to third level. This does not measure the capability of the school. This measures the capability of the parents to fund third level.
 
It is a list that ranks schools by the percentage of their pupils that go on to third level. This does not measure the capability of the school. This measures the capability of the parents to fund third level.

Don't get this, surely a child that goes to a school where more children go to 3rd level than another school is a school more likely to have one's own child go to 3rd level, if that is what the parents and child want.

Is 3rd level not free for those who have no resources and who are able to get the points?
 
It is a list that ranks schools by the percentage of their pupils that go on to third level. This does not measure the capability of the school. This measures the capability of the parents to fund third level.

Yeah I'm confused by that comment also.

Ok registration fees are very high and all that, but are you saying that someone from a 'lower ranked' school who does get the points required for a course, will not go due to financial reasons.

I would have thought it would be overwhelmingly for academic reasons (influenced by genes and environment) that people do or don't go onto third level. So points gained in the leaving cert...which does reflect in some way the ability of individual schools.
 
Don't get this, surely a child that goes to a school where more children go to 3rd level than another school is a school more likely to have one's own child go to 3rd level, if that is what the parents and child want.

Yeah I'm confused by that comment also.

Ok registration fees are very high and all that, but are you saying that someone from a 'lower ranked' school who does get the points required for a course, will not go due to financial reasons.

I would have thought it would be overwhelmingly for academic reasons (influenced by genes and environment) that people do or don't go onto third level. So points gained in the leaving cert...which does reflect in some way the ability of individual schools.

Many people cannot afford to go to 3rd level education. For some people, they just can't afford to have no income for 3-4 years. They need to get out and work (or in the current environment, get onto social welfare) as soon as they leave school. For some people, if they don't have reasonable transport access to the college, they can't afford the car or to live away from home. For some people, they can't afford the outrageous registration fees that are just fees by another name. For many low earners, they won't qualify for grants but they still can't afford the fees.
 
For some people, they just can't afford to have no income for 3-4 years.

I went to college and had two jobs which paid my college and living costs. Probably didn't have the best social life or gain the full benefit of the colleges extra curricular activities but I got the education I wanted.
 
1. Inaccuracy
In previous years (and I have little reason to believe this year is any different) these so called lists were inaccurate, didn't count those who went to private colleges (such as the Royal College of Surgeons), didn't count those who went to Universities abroad and didn't count those who deferred their 3rd level place.

It totally ignores those who choose to train, go straight into work, serve apprenticeships etc., as if they were less valid choices than 3rd level education.

2. Irrelevance
The single biggest influence on a child's education is their parents; if parents were educated to 3rd level, children are more likely to do so also.

3. Misleading
Chasing down these so-called 'league tables' fools parents into thinking that they are looking at the right parameters in terms of the best school for their child.
 
Many people cannot afford to go to 3rd level education. For some people, they just can't afford to have no income for 3-4 years. They need to get out and work (or in the current environment, get onto social welfare) as soon as they leave school. For some people, if they don't have reasonable transport access to the college, they can't afford the car or to live away from home. For some people, they can't afford the outrageous registration fees that are just fees by another name. For many low earners, they won't qualify for grants but they still can't afford the fees.

Me too onTour (several jobs).
..and I just went to a run of the mill local country secondary school.

I'm not arguing that a lot of people cannot afford to go onto 3rd level for whatever reason. My contention is that if the individual has made the effort to get the requisite points, they will make the effort to continue education if that's the path they choose. Placing the individual in an environment of like minded people obviously does have a positive effect on the outcome, surely there's not a debate there!

Thirsty,
These journalists are not publishing academic research, they are just gather semi-relevant data and presenting it. It is fact based (I think), just because it doesn't cover all your bases doesn't make it irrelevant. It's a narrow snapshot. Again no debate. The OP might be a millionaire and maybe it's highly relevant to them, you don't know that.

Parents can use these lists as indicators. You guys shouldn't be so black and white about it. It's just more information, parents and students can decide for themselves how to use the info.
 
From someone whose childrens secondary school appeared in the 200s this is my story. Daughter 1 did a plc and then did a degree in dcu 2:1 and post grad in cambridge and is now working in uk... Daughter 2 did degree in ucc 1st class )and now doing phd there as well. and daughter 2 got bursuary in year one and money each year after that and a prize (will not mention as could be identified) on completion of her degree... we never paid for grinds... daughter1 worked her way through college but daughter 2s course did now allow for that because of times etc but now she is sponsored for her phd. and this is all from a local community school... imo school does not matter it depends on ability and parents attitude.

Okay we did have to pay reg fees every year and give money for books but that was our investment in our children and I suppose we are lucky we had the money for this.
 
... imo school does not matter it depends on ability and parents attitude.

Oh come on, of course environment has a big role to play. The school itself is very important, peers, teacher quality, equipment, ambition, etc.
 
These "top" fee paying schools know exactly how to get their students the required leaving cert points, but can anyone prove they are better educators when compared to schools lower down the list?
 
I think the point that was made on the radio when announcing these results, was that the top 10 were all either fee-paying or gael scoils, and had parents who were particularly concerned with education. Personally, the school is chosen, but I'm interested in whether it has moved on the table. I understand the league criteria aren't perfect, but the facts speak for themselves.
 
, but the facts speak for themselves.
No, they don't.

If you're suggesting that these league tables show which schools are better, you're wrong. They don't measure the quality of the school. They don't measure the students abilities when they entered the school, so they can't show how much of their development was down to the school. They don't measure how many students get grinds. They don't measure how many parents have web access or access to other resources. They don't measure the quality of the school. They measure the social and financial standing of the parents of kids attending that school
 
You're putting words in my mouth to support your argument. I'm not having one. Only leaving cert results count when entering third level. In that regard the results speak for themselves. Environment, interest of parents, expectations of peers and teachers, and yes, i'm sure grinds play their part. But there are lots of factors that influence exam results. I went to an ordinary country secondary school that is in the top 50. I never had a grind in any subject. But i have a higher than usual level of education.
 
They measure the social and financial standing of the parents of kids attending that school

Complainer, You are absolutely correct about what such a league table doesn't tell you. Unfortunately you are equally wrong about the financial standing. There are people from a diverse range of financial backgrounds, like there is in non-fee paying schools. It tells you about parents willingness to invest in education regardless of how easily they can afford it.

What do you mean by social standing?
 
Complainer, You are absolutely correct about what such a league table doesn't tell you. Unfortunately you are equally wrong about the financial standing. There are people from a diverse range of financial backgrounds, like there is in non-fee paying schools. It tells you about parents willingness to invest in education regardless of how easily they can afford it.

What do you mean by social standing?

+1. Although I don't think any amount of debate will sway the narrow-minded on this thread. I'm out...
 
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