Socialism. Has it ever worked economically?

ringledman

Registered User
Messages
620
Socialism, communism, call it what you like.

Has any nation ever got wealthy off it?

Economically, it has to be a disaster. The mere concept that government can be a better allocator of capital than the free market is ludicrous.

It seems like a history of failed utopian ideas...

A trip to Cuba reminds me of its failings. What a repressed and sad nation of people held back from success.

Or are there rare cases of it in history of ever having worked?
 
Do you have examples of where capitalism (without state intervention, subsidies and protection of capitalists) has worked economically?
 
Do you have examples of where capitalism (without state intervention, subsidies and protection of capitalists) has worked economically?

Capitalism is the only national wealth creator known to man.

The USA was built of the principles of the free market, liberty, respect for property rights, low taxes, the rule of law and minimal government intervention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj8rMwdQf6k

Unfortunately the nation is now destroying itself with socialism idealism and government intervention of every part of its economy.

There are many examples in Asia of the free market lifting millions out of poverty and setting them on the course to economic wealth.

The problem is socialism seems to rear its head in every nation every few decades and destroys all wealth creating principles set before it.
 
When economic models become political philosophies they fail. Economics should be about a scientific and pragmatic search for the best way to manage an economy. Therefore socialism and capitalism are not comparable; socialism is closer to a religion than an economic philosophy as it seeks to control many aspects of society.
The brand of socialism that is espoused by the Irish Labour Party is a more pragmatic and centralist type. It accepts the free market but seeks to have more state intervention and social engineering.

It should also be remembered that the free market is an artificial construct and open competition can only exist with intervention and active regulation from governments. I don’t see how pure capitalism or pure socialism could ever work.

The debate is really about what type of state intervention/interference should take place in the market and what it’s objectives should be.
 
Does anyway really fall for the capitalism=good, socialism= bad argument anymore?
As Purple says, pure capitalism or socialism would never work. China is hardly the poster boy of capitalism or socialism for that matter but they don't do a bad job at creating wealth
 
Corruption will always destroy capitalism or communism.
As soon as you introduce politicians, it's the kiss of death.
 
Does anyone know why people had to join long queues for food in communist states?
 
.. China is hardly the poster boy of capitalism or socialism for that matter but they don't do a bad job at creating wealth

Wouldn't China be regarded as state capitalist though, same as the USSR was? It was still a capitalist society, it was just that the state appropriated the capital and directed it towards its ends.

I doubt whether pure socialism or capitalism (or anarchism for that matter) can exist on a grand scale, but can work very well in smaller societies/clubs etc.

It doesn't stop them from being ideals to work towards though, and all are good depending on your perspective.

Does anyone know why people had to join long queues for food in communist states?
I believe that was due to the corruption within the system, and misallocation of resources towards nukes and such.
 
Does anyone know why people had to join long queues for food in communist states?

Often in socialist or communist states the government think in their wisdom to set the price for food low. They think that this will help everyone to eat cheaply. Unfortunately all it does is reduce the supply of goods from the market as farmers either cut crops, divert them out of the country or let their farms become inefficient. The government's intervention eventually leads to people going hungry because they miss read the effect of their policy.

Whenever a government interfers in the allocation of capital in the free market then people become poorer for it.

The free market is a finely balanced and excellent allocator of capital, resources and labour. It is not perfect but damn near.

Peter Schiff or Tom Woods, had a great quote-

Ever wondered how every coffee shop seems to appear in exactly the right place? Perfectly distanced from the next? This is the free market allocating capital, resources and labour to exactly the right place.

Where the free market gets it wrong (i.e. two coffee shops too close) then the free market will soon reallocate those resources through one of the shops having to close and eventually re-open as something else that the area demands.

Once governments interfere in the free market, disaster looms.

Governments cannot allocate capital, resources and labour effectively. Not because government workers are any less intelligent but because there is no burden for wrong doing. If the government create a bad investment they don't go bust over it like the private sector, thus quickly taking out the misallocation quickly and efficiently from the economy. A government merely throws more money at the problem, from an apparently endless pit of free printed money. This money has not been created by any wealth creating industry.

If it was so easy as print your way to wealth, Zimbabwe would now be the richest country on earth, and not one of its poorest with 70%+ unemployment.

Likewise an economy largely state run can never properly decide what people require and where. Because their is no 'creative destruction' of bad investments, the whole economy can appear healthy, although in reality the whole situation is an illusion until the total collapse of the entire system occurs. The USSR is a classic example.

The West is heading for a total collapse of the system at some point. I believe within 10 years we will face 20% inflation and possibly even hyperinflation of 50% plus. The US eventually will collapse as debt is currently at 350% of GDP when all unfunded liabilities are included.

The government caused this crises. The bankers merely hitched along for the ride of negative interest rates (i.e. below inflation) and massive monetary printing by Bush and Greenspan. Obama and Bernanke are even worse, trying to delay the original pair's mega credit binge with an even bigger government inspired bailout. These 4 have been an economic disaster for the US.

For a great read on all that is wrong with government intervention thne I recommend Jim Roger's 'Investment Biker' and 'Adventure Capitalist'.

Everything about the free market, libertarianism and the Austrian school of economics makes sense. Unfortunately government's will never give it a chance to succeed.

For a much more eloquent discussion of the problems of government's eternal failure whenever they interfere in the running of the economy, the excellent Tom Woods -

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=15

Tooth Fairy Economics
Tom Woods

So the "stimulus" package, a dagger through the heart of the economy, has passed. The geniuses who govern us, who insist that seizing the produce of the voluntary economy and devoting it to arbitrary projects will make us wealthy, have had their victory.

Much of the debate turned, unfortunately, on how much "pork" was in the bill. This or that spending program was silly or an obvious waste of money, critics said. All too true, of course, but unless we're looking to be hired by the Titanic's Department of Deck Chair Rearrangement, we're missing the point with arguments like this.

The primary fallacy of the tooth-fairy economics at the heart of the stimulus is the very idea that economic health is the product of government spending, which is financed either by borrowing (which leaves private businesses with a smaller share of the pool of savings for them to borrow from), printing money out of thin air, or direct seizure from the population. Whatever government spends the money on is necessarily arbitrary -- government lacks the profit-and-loss feedback mechanism that keeps the private sector from squandering resources and employing factors of production in ways that do not cater to consumer wants. It can seize its resources from the people without their consent, and it makes no difference to government whether or not people actually want or wind up using the things it produces. Meanwhile, the economy loses the goods that would have been produced by the voluntary sector had the government not seized these resources for its own use.

The more sophisticated Keynesians, if that isn't an oxymoron, will come back with the argument that while they really do agree with you in cases when the economy is experiencing "full employment," your point doesn't apply when there are "idle resources." In that case, we can "stimulate" those idle resources into action without drawing resources out of alternative employments. These resources currently have no alternative employments.

Nice try. But whatever projects our wise planners come up with to put these "idle resources" to work will inevitably draw complementary resources away from alternative employments that are more urgently desired than what the government intends to use them for. Resources will unavoidably be drawn from current employments in the attempt to kick-start "idle resources." So the "idle resources" argument doesn't really manage to evade the opportunity-cost problem.

Beyond that, pro-stimulus thinkers show remarkably little curiosity about why the so-called idle resources are idle in the first place. They are idle because of some previous entrepreneurial miscalculation. What might have caused systemic miscalculation of this kind? Could it be the Federal Reserve's manipulation of interest rates, which leads investors to make incorrect assessments of profitability and provokes false economic booms, as F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing in 1974?

Consider a circus that comes to town for a few weeks. A restaurant owner may expand his seating capacity in the false expectation that the circus and the related demand for his food that it brings in its wake will last forever. But when the circus leaves town, he'll find he has "idle resources" on his hands. We should not want to put these idle resources to work. Doing so would only draw labor and other resources away from other sectors of the economy, where they are employed in the satisfaction of real consumer demand. The expansion of the restaurant should not have occurred in the first place. We should want this bubble activity to shrink back down to size, in order that other, non-bubble activities in the economy can be correspondingly strengthened.

In the wake of a previous, unsustainable boom brought about by the central bank's credit expansion, the market economy and its price system, left to their own devices, will adopt another arrangement of resources that employs available factors in the service of producing goods and services that correspond to real consumer demand. During the bust, free individuals interacting within the market nexus sort out which projects and business ventures are healthy and sustainable, and which are bubble activities that cannot survive without a constant artificial increase in the money supply, and cannot (and should not) survive now that reality has reasserted itself.

That's what the market was allowed to do in the long-forgotten depression of 1920-21. Instead of a "fiscal stimulus" package, the government cut its budget. The Fed, for its part, did little. Meanwhile, the economy was allowed to clean out the malinvestments of the false boom of previous years, thereby making a robust recovery possible.

The artificial housing boom made Americans feel wealthier than they really were. As a result, they consumed more than they would have if the Fed-created housing bubble had not distorted their assessments of their net worth. What the economy needs now, therefore, is not "spending" per se. Too much spending and debt caused the initial problem. People bought more house than they could afford, and on the basis of its seemingly incessant appreciation they went out and purchased more consumer goods than they now realize they should have. Americans are in more debt than they can pay back -- credit-card defaults will provoke calls for the next round of bailouts. How can "spending" solve this problem?

Meanwhile, part of the reason the American savings rate has been so low is that for many Americans, saving seemed superfluous: after all, they possessed an asset that (they falsely believed) was guaranteed to appreciate over time. That, after all, is what the experts told them. The dramatic rise in housing prices isn't an unsustainable bubble that has to burst, Fed economists said. It is a sustainable increase based on real factors.

Oops.

We should not want to "stimulate" an economy based on debt and overconsumption back into existence. We should want to restructure it along sustainable lines.

For instance, we're now learning that Starbucks, at least in its one-store-every-ten-feet business model, was a bubble activity. With the housing bubble having burst, people now have a more accurate estimate of their real level of wealth. They're now less likely to buy a $5 cup of coffee -- or, in the case of the ailing Cold Stone Creamery, spend $6 for an ice cream cone. These are resources that need to be freed up so business firms carrying out genuine, non-bubble activities can be strengthened and the recovery accelerated.

In his recent press conference, President Obama cited the case of Japan as if it were evidence for his side of the argument. Exactly the opposite is true. Japan has done everything to itself that our government has done and is threatening to do to us, and with no results. From partial nationalization of its banking system to "stimulus" packages amounting to trillions of yen, from propping up zombie companies and dropping interest rates to zero, they've tried it all.

Naturally, the Keynesian response is that Japan simply didn't spend enough. Oh? Thanks to the misnamed "stimulus" packages that the Japanese government imposed on its hapless people, Japan is the most indebted country in the developed world. So becoming the most indebted country in the developed world -- and that's saying something -- still isn't enough spending for Keynesians?

What would be enough, then? A quadrillion dollars? A googol dollars? Infinity minus one dollars? It'd be interesting to know what "stimulus" figure might make a Keynesian declare, "Now that's too much!"

If there's one silver lining to the crisis, it's that more and more people are figuring out that so-called respectable opinion has been dead wrong, and for a long time. The economics profession, by and large, has embarrassed itself with a Keynesianism so crude it would not satisfy a bright sixth-grader. People trotted out as experts, who failed to see the crisis coming and have no idea how it occurred -- "excessive risk-taking!" they say, in a non-explanation that merely begs the question -- have no idea how to solve it.

This, incidentally, is why I wrote my new book Meltdown, which gives a free-market overview of what caused the problem, where we are now, and how we get out. People are ready to listen to reasonable, previously neglected ideas, especially if the people who hold them managed to predict the current crisis -- as indeed the economists of the Austrian School did. It's up to us to bring them these ideas.
 
Capitalism is the only national wealth creator known to man.

The USA was built of the principles of the free market, liberty, respect for property rights, low taxes, the rule of law and minimal government intervention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj8rMwdQf6k

Unfortunately the nation is now destroying itself with socialism idealism and government intervention of every part of its economy.

There are many examples in Asia of the free market lifting millions out of poverty and setting them on the course to economic wealth.

The problem is socialism seems to rear its head in every nation every few decades and destroys all wealth creating principles set before it.
Why don't you fill in readers of the full picture of the great US of A. Tell the readers how the USA leads the developed world in homicide rates, teenage birth rates, obesity rates, imprisonment rates, mental illness rates and infant death rates. Tell the readers how the USA lags the developed world in overseas aid, and social mobility (ability of children of poor parents to get rich) and child wellbeing (except UK, NZ and Israel). Tell the readers how the USA now spends more on prisons than on higher education, imprisons people at 14 times the rate of Japan and how the prison population has grown six-fold in the past 30 years.

The American dream, eh?
 
Why don't you fill in readers of the full picture of the great US of A. Tell the readers how the USA leads the developed world in homicide rates, teenage birth rates, obesity rates, imprisonment rates, mental illness rates and infant death rates. Tell the readers how the USA lags the developed world in overseas aid, and social mobility (ability of children of poor parents to get rich) and child wellbeing (except UK, NZ and Israel). Tell the readers how the USA now spends more on prisons than on higher education, imprisons people at 14 times the rate of Japan and how the prison population has grown six-fold in the past 30 years.

The American dream, eh?

I agree with you, it's far from perfect, but you have to take the massive emigrant population that they take in every year and the huge social problems that creates. Japan is a homogeneous, and quite racist, country so I it’s apples and oranges there.

What’s your view on the OP’s question?
 
Does anyone know why people had to join long queues for food in communist states?

Nowhere near as long as the queues in the depression of the 30s in America.
Generally the communist/socialist countries of eastern europe did a very good job in providing basic food to everyone. It was luxury goods that were in short suppy.
As regards Cuba, their main problem was the United States embargo and trade sanctions. Cuba has a fine record in health and education.If Ireland had similiar sanctions imposed we would be in a very sorry state....only cars from the 50s and no inward investment or indeed export markets for most of our produce.
As has been mentioned,the argument is far from clearcut as most countries are a mix of capitalist and the government having a big role. Being a rich powerful country is a big help as countries like the U.S. can get resoucres from around the world cheaply, instigating wars and coups if needed.In poorer countries there is so little to go around that the culture is for sharing the limited resoucres,otherwise some people wouldn`t just be poor..they would die of hunger.
The U.S. has a tough welfare policy for poor americans but many of the richest americans receive government money and of course many big U.S companies get bailed out by the taxpayer so it is not a strict ideology.
My own view is that small buisnesses are best served by the private capitalist model,but some big buisnesses need to be state controlled like health and education and certain utilities. The less competition a buisness has the more regulation there needs to be.
 
Why don't you fill in readers of the full picture of the great US of A. Tell the readers how the USA leads the developed world in homicide rates, teenage birth rates, obesity rates, imprisonment rates, mental illness rates and infant death rates. Tell the readers how the USA lags the developed world in overseas aid, and social mobility (ability of children of poor parents to get rich) and child wellbeing (except UK, NZ and Israel). Tell the readers how the USA now spends more on prisons than on higher education, imprisons people at 14 times the rate of Japan and how the prison population has grown six-fold in the past 30 years.

The American dream, eh?

You clearly haven't read what I've said, just jumped to a conclusion. Please re-read.

Firstly I'm no fan of the USA. Infact quite the opposite. The USA is a dump and a repressive statist regime.

My writings and the video clip refer to the 'American Dream' of the century running up to the 80s. An economic miracle brought about by minimal state intervention in the running of the economy, low taxes, the rule of law, low debt and freedom for enterprise.

Raegan was the last real free market advocate.

The past 20 years for the US have been a statist run regime, whether democrat or republican. They have all been the same, government's expanding debt and interference in all aspects of the economy, resulting in the eventual bust. This is not free market real capitalism as was once the case in the US.

This is how great socialists and unions can run an economy -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hhJ_49leBw

Hardly capitalism at fault...

Thirdly, with regards to Cuba. Yes the embargo has stiffled the country, no doubt. A further sign of how states and government intervention screws people. Nonetheless the socialist people in power have created the bulk of their poverty.

Cuba is a sad country. Yes they may have a good health and education service, agreed. But there is total desolation on the faces there. No freedom, huge corruption, Havana is an absolutely desolate city. The only people who make the bare minimum to survive are the people working in the tourist resorts. The government should be ashamed of the way they treat their people.

Communism and socialism has been proven to fail in every country is has been tried in.

Real capitalism is always prevented from achieving its universal goals from statist and left leaning governments intent on expanding the state at an eventual detriment to all.
 
...

Cuba is a sad country. Yes they may have a good health and education service, agreed. But there is total desolation on the faces there. No freedom, huge corruption, Havana is an absolutely desolate city. The only people who make the bare minimum to survive are the people working in the tourist resorts. The government should be ashamed of the way they treat their people.
....

Have you been to Cuba?

While the buildings are in a poor state of repair, the rest of your description is a gross mischaracterisation of Cuban life, certainly the Cuba I've seen anyway.
 
Have you been to Cuba?

While the buildings are in a poor state of repair, the rest of your description is a gross mischaracterisation of Cuban life, certainly the Cuba I've seen anyway.

No I watched it on the TV. Of course I've been. I'm sorry but it is a sad country.

It is not a mischaracterisation, don't come on here preaching that the socialist state of affairs there is great.

Firstly the city is in major dissrepair. Apart from the old town that has a lick of paint the rest is 3rd world. They cram hundreds into buses that can only be described as fit for livestock. There is a distinct lack of necessities, except those marketed to the tourists.

The tourist resorts are islands seperated from the mainland and armed with guards. No locals are allowed to live on the tourist resorts and are bused in daily some hour or two away. These are the lucky one making enough off the tips to survive.

Ive probably been to poorer countries but I've never seen people as sad as in Cuba.

A sad state of affairs. A great nation held back by a repressive statist regime.
 
I remember reading somewhere that the USSR had a higher standard of living than Ireland in at least before or during the 1960s. Can anyone verify this ?
 
I remember reading somewhere that the USSR had a higher standard of living than Ireland in at least before or during the 1960s. Can anyone verify this ?
The problem isn't doctrine, it's lack of competence by those in charge at the top (both politicians and public servants, but mainly politicians; the civil servants can only advise, if their political masters are too stupid to listen then there is nothing they can do about it).

For the first 50 years this state was grossly mismanaged. In fact, other than a brief spell in the 60’s (under Lemass) and another between the mid 80's and the late 90's, (starting with Ray McSharry and ending after Ruairi Quinn) it has always been grossly mismanaged.

So Finance Ministers that were both left and right of centre did the right thing in the 80’s and 90’s and ministers that were both left and right of centre did the wrong thing after them.
 
Back
Top