Making a Joke of Bankruptcy

Hi Kerrigan

We are putting changes to the bankruptcy acts through the Dáil at the moment.

The general view is that people who are bankrupt should get a fresh start.
That applies to small business people, it applies to unemployed people who can no longer afford their mortgages and it aplies to big property developers as well.
It will apply to people we like and it will apply to people we might not like.

Going bankrupt is not and should not be a life sentence.

If I choose to buy Sean Fitzpatrick's former home and rent it back to him, that is my affair. I can rent it to him free of charge if I wish.

If a relative of mine went bankrupt, I would certainly do what I could to help out.

Brendan
 
Why would anyone bother paying a mountain of debt, when its so easy to get away?
 
Most people do pay their debts if they can.

If they are bankrupt, they can't. It happens.

If they can pay their debts, the courts will not allow them go bankrupt.

Brendan
 
Brendan -you claim that most people pay their debts if they can.

I think the point that Kerrigan and Mark12 are making is that far less people will pay their debts if they can pop over to the UK leaving a mountain of debt in Ireland - and then pop back without having to pay a penny to honest creditors.
Basically it's far too easy to get away with debts by using this UK route.

Furthermore ,and I am not referring to any particular case, when one sees developers and others lving the high life whilst their creditors have suffered financial loss it leaves a nasty taste.

The taste gets worse when one sees that one's wife or others who made their money whilst working for the so-called bankrupt have "helped" him...
(oh, it's not my mansion that I'm living in -it's my wife's ,my daughter's, my mum's - they made a lot of money and could afford to buy it. I'm poor now and starting again.)

you state "If they can pay their debts the court will not allow them to go bankrupt"

But how do the UK courts have any idea of what the person really has ?
Do UK bankruptcy courts investigate how much the person paid family members or close friends prior to ceasing trading? Suddenly, a wife or brother or son ends up owning the asset previously owned by the bankrupt. And the happy bankrupt is back in his home again !(not "his" of course, but that of a close helpful relative).

To repeat - I am talking generally and not about any specific case.
 
Most people do pay their debts if they can.

If they are bankrupt, they can't. It happens.

If they can pay their debts, the courts will not allow them go bankrupt.

Brendan

I think you have a very idealistic view of the whole process. Unfortunately it is now a fact that a large portion of people can pay their mortgages but won't pay.

They can "hide" their money by placing it under the mattress, in their parents bank accounts (I know of one person where this is happening), in non Irish bank accounts (know of one couple owho have substantial amount in a US account) etc etc. Although we say these people will be caught the reality is that the vast amount won't.

Just like all those people who draw the dole and work off the books, this is another worrying trend on the increase I think.
 
Hiding income and assets is human instinct, perfectly normal and expectable in such a crisis, what worries me as a taxpayer who will foot the bill for all this is that the government is creating an incentive for people to go away not to stay.
I would prefer to see half the debt forgiven for these people, than to have all of it gone in the UK bankruptcy system.

I would prefer to pay half of these peoples debt, rather than all of it,

That's what the government and all the experts haven't realised yet, even a 5 year old child understands that half is better than nothing.
 
But how do the UK courts have any idea of what the person really has ?
Do UK bankruptcy courts investigate how much the person paid family members or close friends prior to ceasing trading? Suddenly, a wife or brother .

No, this is not as extensively looked into as one might think. Also on a lesser note the trend of DM companies in this country never request payslips, bank statements etc. yet they will fight tooth and nail to get a debtor released from 75% of their debts or get them onto a repayment plan to pay the bare minimum to their debtors in which case the debt will almost never get fully repaid and finally the debt gets written off never to resurface again apart from the tab the TAX paper has to pick up.

Mark, I agree with your post and agree with every other post you have put on here. It is all very simple arithmetic but the brains that are running this bankrupt state are blind to see where this is all leading.
 
Isn't it great Flemming's son in law had 250K to hand to buy the property. Maybe he'll sell it back to his father-in-law in a few years.

I wonder if son in law puts into into his wife's name and then takes his name off it, so no CGT, nor stamp duty I think, then can she gift it to dad. Cannot remember the rules but how would one ensure the least exposure to tax.
 
John Fleming got rid of 1 Billion, dividing that by 1.7 million working people, equals €588 per worker.
I have already paid my property tax of €100, i still owe John Flemming €488, can i pay the rest in instalments please?
 
Mark12 to pay in instalments you will have to set up a Direct Debit and the Banks WILL CHARGE YOU for EACH Direct Debit ;-) Can you not try to squeeze your Household Budget a bit more to give the remaining 488 to John Flemming and the likes.. in one go!
 
Fot those that feel that profits are private and losses are social this model will remain and can be availed of by this individual and his ilk, it is a joke but a really bad one.
 
People wake up !
Your anger is misplaced , your anger should be directed at the TD'S /parties of the previous government and present government who perpetuate this crime on the Irish people.This bankrupt never borrowed money from the Irish state or Irish people AFAIK. He borrowed from private banks . People who go around giving out about people who have availed of bankruptcy need to ask themselves these questions .
Who put you on the hook for this debt ? Fianna Fail & Greens .
Who is keeping you on the hook ? Fine Gael & Labour.
Who benefits from us (Irish People) converting this private debt to Sovereign debt. Banks and bondholders who financed our banks to loan such amounts.
 
I am not speaking of this particular case but I am aware of the supposed 'suffering' of a speculator who is supposedly in the UK filing for bankruptcy.

They are currently walking around their community still mixing with the great and the good. This is not local gossip as I have seen this with my own eyes. Their home still seems to be as is, but their fleet of fancy vehicles are gone.
 
I am not speaking of this particular case but I am aware of the supposed 'suffering' of a speculator who is supposedly in the UK filing for bankruptcy.

.

Are you saying there is no pain to a bankruptcy?
 
Are you saying there is no pain to a bankruptcy?

There seems to be more pain for couples with children who have to move to the UK and live in a one bed flat in an undesirable part of London with little to no income.

These people did not squirrel lumps sums of cash to their family for the purposes of buying their home and then gifting it back to them on completion of bankruptcy.
 
There is for creditors anyway

You're absolutely right DB74. There is a lot of struggling creditors out there who have many reasons to be angry. Personally I don't have any problem with anyone going bankrupt as if one believes in capitalism one understands that there will be failures.

What gauls one though is those who can move assets about to suit a bankruptcy, and then comes back in business with low and behold a new company, I'm am not referring in any way to John Flemming, just as usual talking as I do about bankruptcy in general. It's very important on this thread we do not speak about anyone in particular.
 
There seems to be more pain for couples with children who have to move to the UK and live in a one bed flat in an undesirable part of London with little to no income.

These people did not squirrel lumps sums of cash to their family for the purposes of buying their home and then gifting it back to them on completion of bankruptcy.

Absolutely totally in agreement with you wishes.
 
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