Water Charges Tenant or Landlord to pay?

Incidentally, both rental properties have tenancies registered with PRTB, and all taxes etc are paid up in full to the relevant authorities. I mention this only in relation to the various reports of Irish Water sourcing their ownership information from other agencies.

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Well I have received three packs to three different addresses I have lived in over the last tennish years (I have one property let out and rent elsewhere and fully compliant), all of my last three as per revenue. One is the registered PRTB address but only revenue or banks could have supplied all three. I am certain it was not the electoral poll either btw.

TRipley said:

The tenants then complete and return by end of October. If they don't, then Irish Water will come to the landlord / management company for the tenants details. Irish water will then pursue the tenants. The tenants are responsible for all ensuing water charges. The landlord has no liability for water charges in the tenanted property.

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I'm not sure if this will be the case. I just phoned Irish Water as a landlord who received a pack. I checked with my tenants and they haven't received any pack addressed to 'The Occupier'. I was told that due to 'Data Protection', I am not allowed to give Irish Water the tenants name to send out a pack and remove my liability from this charge.

So... if my tenant decides not to register & pay, which I'm sure some tenants will & the details stay in my name then I'm guessing that I will always be liable for all unpaid bills!

This doesn't sound like it's been thought through very well, what will happen if I try to sell my property with unpaid water charges from previous tenants?
How will Irish Water persue tenants who haven't paid when they won't take details from the landlord.

I don't understand what this has to do with data protection, the landlord/tenant relationship & all details including PPS numbers is registered with PRTB.
Electric Ireland and Bord Gais have no problem taking tenant details from me when a new tenant moves in & I phone with meter readings requesting final bills & registering new tenants so why should Irish Water be different.

The big difference is that they won't/can't cut off supply so tenants have much less motivation to sign up.

Looks like landlords are very exposed on this one! I wonder will Irish Water even tell me if there are any unpaid water charges if I phone to check at end of lease? If that's under data protection & they won't tell me then, then I can't deduct what I don't know about from a deposit!

If the list of rental or second properties was got from the local authority via the NPPR, does this mean the rental properties which arose since the beginning of 2014 will not be contacted.
Since the NPPR finished in 2013, I presume new rental or second homes acquired since 2014 will be only on the LPT list.
Given the way our contact name and address was written I think the database has come from the Revenue database as it has one letter small typo error that is only on revenue related correspondence.

I've a good tenant. However I won't be sending on the pack to my tenant. I have texted him seeking PPS numbers and he's given them to me.

I will fill in the form myself and send it in to be on the safe side.

As there is no signature required at the declaration stage it can't have any legal standing.

Quick question. What happens to your good tenant when they realise that you have pretended to be them and completed the form online? Never mind the illegality of doing this unless they have given you permission to act on their behalf.

Clearly a tenant cost so why would you not send the pack on to them? They will get the bill after all so aren't you better to discover at this stage whether there is a real problem with them not wanting to pay the charge?

squaw said:

If the list of rental or second properties was got from the local authority via the NPPR, does this mean the rental properties which arose since the beginning of 2014 will not be contacted.
Since the NPPR finished in 2013, I presume new rental or second homes acquired since 2014 will be only on the LPT list.
Given the way our contact name and address was written I think the database has come from the Revenue database as it has one letter small typo error that is only on revenue related correspondence.

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I have no letter yet, and I'm on revenue, prtb, lpt, nppr and household charge.

Just received the below reply from Irish Water to my questions and concerns as a landlord.

It is very clear from this that if the tenant does not register, the landlord will be liable BUT they are not accepting registration details on behalf of tenants from the landlord so it's really dependent on the tenant registering & paying

Landlords are going to be screwed on this. I wonder what percentage of tenants will actually register themselves??

'
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your email regarding your rented property.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The tenant needs to apply for the allowances themselves, the landlord can not do so on their behalf.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Once the tenant registers the account in their name they are liable for the payments and any unpaid bills they will be liable for.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You will receive notification during the month of October to inform you whether or not they have registered.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register and fail to pay the bill.[/FONT]
As regards the sale of the property in the event of an unpaid bill, the amount due will stay with the tenant who is liable and not the property.'

I have reqplied to them seeking clarification on the last statement as I do not understand how the tenant will be liable on the sale of the property if they never registered in the first place!

This is a mess.

Gerard123 said:

Quick question. What happens to your good tenant when they realise that you have pretended to be them and completed the form online? Never mind the illegality of doing this unless they have given you permission to act on their behalf.

Clearly a tenant cost so why would you not send the pack on to them? They will get the bill after all so aren't you better to discover at this stage whether there is a real problem with them not wanting to pay the charge?

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See post #27 . Explains my actions.

I'm not doing it online. There is no way I have time prior to my holiday to do a 140 mile round trip to my tenant.

This is too important to leave it to someone else.
The form was sent to me even thought all the authorities know my letting is registered, all NPPR s paid, household charges paid, property taxes paid, rental income returns made and taxes paid.
It addresses me as a Customer . It states that the form should be completed by the person to appear on the bill. If it was really a legal requirement the word "shall" would appear.

I'm simply making sure I'm covered.

dillons said:

Just received the below reply from Irish Water to my questions and concerns as a landlord.

It is very clear from this that if the tenant does not register, the landlord will be liable BUT they are not accepting registration details on behalf of tenants from the landlord so it's really dependent on the tenant registering & paying

Landlords are going to be screwed on this. I wonder what percentage of tenants will actually register themselves??

'
[FONT=&quot]Thank you for your email regarding your rented property.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The tenant needs to apply for the allowances themselves, the landlord can not do so on their behalf.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Once the tenant registers the account in their name they are liable for the payments and any unpaid bills they will be liable for.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You will receive notification during the month of October to inform you whether or not they have registered.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register and fail to pay the bill.[/FONT]
As regards the sale of the property in the event of an unpaid bill, the amount due will stay with the tenant who is liable and not the property.'

I have reqplied to them seeking clarification on the last statement as I do not understand how the tenant will be liable on the sale of the property if they never registered in the first place!

This is a mess.

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".. BUT they are not accepting registration details on behalf of tenants from the landlord so it's really dependent on the tenant registering & paying"

Since there's no signature required are they going to get handwriting experts in to see who wrote the letters in the boxes?

I am considering emailing Irish Water with the Names and addresses of my Tenants and stating that it is up to them (Irish Water) to sort out the matter. I will keep a copy of the email and use it as my defence that I have done what I could.
I am not allowed to fill out the form on behalf of the Tenants.
I cannot stand over the Tenants and watch them fill it out.
I cannot take the the completed form from the Tenants and post it.
I cannot see how Landlords can be held to ransom by Irish Water on this issue.
Irish Water have access to a huge amount of information and should get off their overpaid a..es and do their job and not be virtually bullying Landlords into doing their job for them.
They certainly got enough resources when starting up. I have not got my documents from Irish Water yet and some of my Tenants claim they haven't either. I have no way of knowing that either. This registration system will not be completed by the end of October.

Dermot said:

I am considering emailing Irish Water with the Names and addresses of my Tenants and stating that it is up to them (Irish Water) to sort out the matter. I will keep a copy of the email and use it as my defence that I have done what I could.

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That's a very interesting approach Dermot.
This morning I listened back to an interview from Matt Cooper's Last Word with Paul McGowen from the Commission for Energy Regulation from 30th September show.
In it he answered a question from Matt on whether tenant or landlord are liable if tenant doesn't fill in the application park. Mr McGowen confirmed that once the landlord proves that they are not resident at the address then they won't be liable.
I have written to the Commission for Energy Regulation with my response from Irish Water today on landlord liability seeking clarity.

I think, I too, will do as you suggested and email Irish Water with tenant/lease/PRTB details so that I have a record of notifying them

Am I right in thinking that once a tenant has registered with the water board,the landlord going forward is never liable then as it is now registered in someone else's name .And what If that tenant A leaves and does not inform water board and a new tenant B moves in and does not bother registering and as the water board wont take details from landlord is tenant A liable going forward as bill is in his name.

"I am not allowed to fill out the form on behalf of the Tenants."

You may do what you like. The form doesn't say Shall it says should..... What if the person/s are illiterate?

I've been on again to Irish water. The packs didn't reach me because they used 'Ireland' as the country and for another address they don't have me in the system at all. Apparently there are loads of packs returned unopened in their mail room. They are now spending most of their time fixing their data bases.

I've been told they will confirm in writing that as non occupier I am not liable. I've told them I've no problem signing up as landlord as long as I am not liable, and I've no problem in between tenancies being the payee for that period of time. Apparently that will say mean if it's one week, 1/52 of the annual unoccupied rate.

They will send me the landlord pack by email so I can see what I am signing up for.

I will update next week, but I seem to be making a little bit of progress, this is totally different to what I have already in writing from them. I actually dealt with two competent people today, which makes a big change. Once I gave them the address of a property they could see in the data base where the letter went, it has my foreign address.

You guys wouldn't believe the number of departments and subdivisions they seem to have. What a quango.

And even funner, they are trying to physically locate on some kind of map tool, where properties actually are, apparently old fellows in Bally go backwards has to help them on the phone to locate it. I asked a very simple question on this, why didn't they use the ESB data base, they must have 99.99995 accuracy rate on addresses in Ireland. Sure that would be too easy I guess, they are trying to reinvent the wheel.

I honestly thought the PRTB was incompetent when that was set up, but Irish Water takes the biscuit.