Manager and HR want a meeting

What has one got to do with the other?
The shame of the Neary case was not so much the extreme actions of Neary himself (who carried out 188 post-partum hysterectomies in his career, compared to an average of 5 or 6 for consultant obstetricians), but the fact that this was accepted by his medical and nursing colleages. From Wikipedia:
The Inquiry found how a senior consultant colleague of Dr Neary’s in the 70s and 80s, now deceased, told a Matron who was questioning the high number of hysterectomies that Dr Neary was “afraid of haemorrhage”. A junior consultant pathologist at the hospital in the early 80s asked his senior colleague why a perinatal uterus specimen he received seemed to have nothing wrong with it. The senior consultant replied “that’s Michael Neary for you”.
The midwife who did eventually stand up and call a halt was ostracised by her nursing colleagues.

This 'closing of ranks' cost about 180 women their reproductive organs. I would hope that some lessons have been learnt in the medical profession that would stop 'closing of ranks' as a defensive reaction to such complaints.
 
Folks, we appear to be veering away from the original question was about, what should this person do given that her manager wanted to meet with her with HR present.

Even though this is not a formal disciplinary meeting, can I suggest you tape record the meeting having told this person and the person from HR, that for the purposes of having correct meeting minutes you are going to record it, and you will happily give them a copy of the tape afterwards.

If they are upfront and playing by the rules, they should not object. If they do, remind them that it is almost physically impossible to both take part and take minutes properly at the same time.


I find it very strange that your home has been requested as the venue for this meeting.

Please remember, you are also not obliged to have anyone in your home if do not wish to and you could ask for a neutral venue if you do not feel comfortable with their demands. (If I was in your shoes, it would be the last place I'd want to have these type of visitors- this is not a social visit and no doubt you are feeling very vulnerable and need the security of your home and family. Not to be picked on in your own home would be a very important consideration for deciding whether or not to allow the meeting to take place as requested)!!

Hope this issue gets resolved soon for you.

Best of luck
 
The shame of the Neary case was not so much the extreme actions of Neary himself (who carried out 188 post-partum hysterectomies in his career, compared to an average of 5 or 6 for consultant obstetricians), but the fact that this was accepted by his medical and nursing colleages. From Wikipedia:

The midwife who did eventually stand up and call a halt was ostracised by her nursing colleagues.

This 'closing of ranks' cost about 180 women their reproductive organs. I would hope that some lessons have been learnt in the medical profession that would stop 'closing of ranks' as a defensive reaction to such complaints.

Has there been a 'closing of ranks' on complaints over the issuing of certs? If not it seems a bit unfair on the medical profession to go off on this tangent. Also a bit like tarring everyone with the same brush - something that I know you strenuously object to when directed at the public sector.
 
Has there been a 'closing of ranks' on complaints over the issuing of certs? If not it seems a bit unfair on the medical profession to go off on this tangent. Also a bit like tarring everyone with the same brush - something that I know you strenuously object to when directed at the public sector.
Go back and check the little 'if' in my post. It was Purple (who has direct family connections in the medical profession) who raised the probability of closing of ranks.
 
Even if the person is caught by their employers out and about in the pub or shopping or something- they could just say that they were having a good day or needed a drink etc etc

As we say to managers 'don't agrue with the cert'.

I have loads of managers telling me they have met 'sick' employees out on the town and what can be done? Answer is nothing as the cert states that they are 'unfit for work'.
 
I have loads of managers telling me they have met 'sick' employees out on the town and what can be done? Answer is nothing as the cert states that they are 'unfit for work'.
I've occasionaly gone out for lunch with the family while genuinely unfit for work in the past. From memory, it has been a one-day thing rather than off on a doctor's cert, but the same principle applies.

You don't need to put quotation marks around 'sick' - Unfit for work does not necessarily equal housebound.
 
Go back and check the little 'if' in my post. It was Purple (who has direct family connections in the medical profession) who raised the probability of closing of ranks.

and you jumped on it to go off on a rant. I'm aware of Purple's family connections to the medical profession, there is no suggestion that that has any bearing on his comment/opinion, and I find the use of the term 'probability' inappropriate - he expressed an opinion. I found your subsequent comments insulting - i have some close family members in the medical profession and I have no doubts at all about their integrity.
 
and you jumped on it to go off on a rant. I'm aware of Purple's family connections to the medical profession, there is no suggestion that that has any bearing on his comment/opinion, and I find the use of the term 'probability' inappropriate - he expressed an opinion. I found your subsequent comments insulting - i have some close family members in the medical profession and I have no doubts at all about their integrity.

If you've a problem with my post, click the red triangle. If you've a problem with Purple's statement "I can't see it working; they would just close ranks", (which in fact goes much further than stating it as a probability) feel free to take it up with him.
 
If you've a problem with my post, click the red triangle. If you've a problem with Purple's statement "I can't see it working; they would just close ranks", (which in fact goes much further than stating it as a probability) feel free to take it up with him.

Fair enough.
 
I've occasionaly gone out for lunch with the family while genuinely unfit for work in the past. From memory, it has been a one-day thing rather than off on a doctor's cert, but the same principle applies.

You don't need to put quotation marks around 'sick' - Unfit for work does not necessarily equal housebound.

I did that because the people I was referring to would not be 'sick' or 'unfit for work' IMO. But as I've said I don't agrue with certs.

I realise that being sick does not mean you are bed bound or house bound but some people abuse the sick leave policies and are just lazy.

We have a very good sick leave policy and because of that its open to abuse.
 
Has there been a 'closing of ranks' on complaints over the issuing of certs? If not it seems a bit unfair on the medical profession to go off on this tangent. Also a bit like tarring everyone with the same brush - something that I know you strenuously object to when directed at the public sector.
Fiar point there rmelly. I should have said "In my opinion there is a high probability that they will just close ranks"
 
Regarding the OP:

Just because an employer calls a meeting it doesn't make it a disciplinary meeting. Again this will depend on your terms and conditions, but many employers review the situation when it comes to long term sick leave. This is to see how the employee is doing and also if there is anything the employer can do to help recovery.

In addition for employers, when an employee states that stress is a direct cause or contributer to the illness and leave, then the employer would also need to investigate this further. This would be to establish if the employment has contributed or if there are reduced duties that could be provided on a temporary basis so the employee can return to work.

However, in short, this is pretty standard HR and absense management practice. The focus is on assessment and seeing how they can help the employee return to work as quickly as is appropriate.

As said however, it's probably best to involve your union rep or have some representation for yourself at the meeting.

On the off-topic Doctor issue:
Despite their vast training a sick note alone stating stress is not always enough. A sepcialised occupational physician would be in a much stronger position to make this call than a general practicioner. The same way a GP wouldn't diagnose cancer and that be the end of the situation. A GP may say that the individual is suffering from stress and possibly that according to the individual this is work related, but until a more detailed analysis of the work and the individual symptons is carried out, this isn't an established fact.

And yes plenty of GPs sign off on sick notes without conducting strong enough examinations.
 
I have been off work twice with PND now. Each time I was able to get up, get dressed, and carry out basic life functions, but I was in no way capable of going into work.
 
Sorry, I was replying to those in the thread who seemed to think that if an employee was off on a sick cert, then there was something wrong with seeing them go shopping, or being out of the house. Like I said, I was able to go out and about, but not able for work.

I hope the OP has found out what was going on!
 
If I was able to go shopping I'd go into work.
I hope this isn't meant to imply that everyone else who is able to go shopping and doesn't go into work (specifically in cases of mental health illnesses) is malingering?
 
Hi I recevied a phone call from my manager yesterday requesting a meeting at home with a HR person present. I asked the reason for this and was advised that due to being of sick for three week would need to come and have a chat to see how things are going. Fine, my manager then said that she had another issue that she wished to talk to me about, but as I was not at work she would want to talk to me about this to. Asked why HR would be present and she said policy. Asked if I could have someone present was advised yes. Contacted HR later that day as something did not seem right went through this with HR guy who told me that manager had told him that my husband would be at the meeting in our own home. Advised that there seemed to be other issues that she did not want to disclose and should I have a union rep with me. He advised that perhaps I should. My manager seems to be trying to get rid of me and I have been feeling harrased by her. My medical problems have been genuine and my doctor advised that some of the stress from work are making them worse. Any suggestions??

Hi Bowkett66
I do hope your meeting, as stated above, went well, as this saga seems to be going on for ages. Hopefully you had an advocate present at the meeting who understood and advised you of your rights.
From what you said I think there are two issues ie (!) your medical condition (2)"other work issues" with your manager.
You stated that you have genuine medical problems which are now exacerbated by workrelated stress. Psychological Stress certainly is a major cause of illness no matter where it originates.
Once workrelated stress is mentioned Management, HR and Insurers go into overdrive. This is understandable as workrelated stress is compensable. Insurers dread this condition as it is quite complex sometimes to identify or seperate the cause, i.e. work-related or nonwork-related.
If your Doctor has issued a medical certificate stating your pre-existing medical condition is exacerbated by work-related stress this is a very serious diagnosis from a Management/HR/IR perspective. Many medical practitioners shy away from this diagnosis as it usually creates a lot of explaning for them. Insurers do not take this diagnosis lightly. Since it's not clear what the issues are between you and your manager it is difficult to give advice. It would seem that the issues are considerable as you mention that your manager is "trying to get rid" of you.
If your pre-existing medical condition is aggravated by the stress at work you have a right to claim workers compensation ie medical expenses, wages etc. If going down that road get advice and support immediately.
However, you need to understand that Management will not accept the diagnosis of a GP and has the right to refer you to a Doctor of choice, usually, an Occupational Physician and /or Medical Specialist/Psychologist, depending on your condition. There will also be an investigation into your claim by the Insurer who will interview you, your manager, and, other employees in your area of work. The Union will also investigate on your behalf, as well as HR/IR.
Ensure that you have a Union Rep. with you at every meeting. Get advice and support re your rights. Hopefully, you have written proof of your difficulties with your manager. Document every meeting with everyone.
Understand your rights re getting your medical expenses paid by the insurer if your condition is work-related. No payment will be made of course until investigations are complete. Hold your head high and do not let judgemental people upset you. So many people suffer in silence.

Good luck on your journey to full recovery.
IrishAussie
 
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