Islam in Ireland

I make a conscious effort not to allow my opinions of Islam be influenced by the behaviour of jihadis in the Middle East, surely their thinking cannot be representative of Muslims generally.

There is an article in todays IT about Islam in education in Ireland.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...ools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810

The guy quoted Dr Ali Selim is described as "A spokesman for the Muslim community in Ireland" and lectures in Mater Dei and Trinity. Here perhaps is someone who is more representative of Muslims generally.

I am sorry but his attitude to women is completely unacceptable in the modern world. Alarming!

In 2009 Selim on RTE’s “Does God Hate…?” series when asked about the practice of stoning women who have committed adultery in Islamic countries he was loath to condemn the barbaric practice outright and instead declared that it was symbolic; small comfort to those in Iran and Somalia who have suffered this horrific fate.

It is astonishing that the spokesperson of an Islamic organization considered by the government to be part of the establishment would not equivocally denounce this despicable practice.

A practice that had been unknown for centuries in the Muslim world up until the relatively recent development of the Salafi sect which the Muslim Brotherhood espouses.

Ali Selim subsequently equated the decision of Muslim women not to wear the hijab with immodesty; this echoes an attitude that blames women for sexual harassment. What Selim fails to acknowledge is the rampant harassment suffered by women in his native Egypt with or without the hijab.

I wouldn't pay a great deal of attention to anything this man says - if he's not happy with the way schools in Ireland are run and the amount of freedom women here have, perhaps he should return to his native Egypt, or move to a country where Sharia Law is enforced, where he might be happier.

So in his wish to make Irish schools more inclusive he actually wants them to be more exclusive? What a strange way of looking at things!
His attitude, not only to women, but in general in this article is worrying to say the least. I would completely agree with one of the replies to that article - "Religious ideology has no place in education in the modern world, it's a personal belief and should be practiced in private.".

You certainly seem to better informed on this issue than I am. However when you say

delgirl said:

I wouldn't pay a great deal of attention to anything this man says .

Click to expand...

I am concerned that given his position, what he says carries weight.

As a lecturer in Mater Die does this man have an input into the formation of education policy in Ireland?

If his views are representative of muslims in general no muslim should be allowed have any role in any Irish school.

Ceist Beag said:

"Religious ideology has no place in education in the modern world, it's a personal belief and should be practiced in private.".

Click to expand...

+1 all religions, not just Islam.

Having lived in the Middle East for many years and having been:-

- forced to wear black garb that I had no wish or religious reason to do in 40+ degree heat;
- forbidden to eat, drink or smoke in public from dawn to dusk during Ramadan (which I do not personally observe);
- forbidden to drive;
- shouted at in the street by an Iman and his hangers-on for daring to jog in a track suit which covered my body from chin to toe;
- witness to a French friend who was beaten with sticks by the Mutawa (Saudi religious police) for allowing her fringe to fall out from beneath the black garb;

... etc. etc.

... it astonishes me to hear the expectations and demands of those who choose to live in a Christian country.

I chose to live in Saudi, Kuwait and Qatar and had to respect their culture, dress code, fasting habits etc. There was no choice and no tolerance. If you were caught even mentioning Christianity to a Muslim, you'd be on the next plane home.

This is the start of it....with a population of 65k (+growing fast), and probably starting to spread out more across the country, their own schools cannot accommodate them all.
So they now want to change the existing school systems to fit in with their beliefs under the banner of 'inclusion'.
Pushing religion is schools should be stopped inside school hours. But the segregation of boys from girls during school activities such as sports, plays etc is just stone age stuff.

Our country, our rules. If you don't like them, no one forced you to come here or is forcing you to stay.

Problems is, this guy will be listened to by the Dept and many other 'influential' voices in Irish society.....no one wants to be called racist!

Delboy said:

Problems is, this guy will be listened to by the Dept and many other 'influential' voices in Irish society.....no one wants to be called racist!

Click to expand...

.. and this leads to institutionalised political correctness which has all sorts of consequences as it has had in Rotherham.

I didn't want to mention Rotherham.

He didn't espouse his views on same sex relationships and how they are currently dealt with in schools when the topic arises. Funny that

Mr Selim has already stated to the Irish Independent in 2006 that he would like to see Sharia Law adopted in Ireland 'should the Muslim population be in the majority'.

In 2001, there were less than 2,000 Muslims in Ireland. Now there are nearly 50,000. By 2020, there will be an estimated 100,000. By 2043, Islam will be Ireland’s second largest religion.

Certainly something to think about!

It was only a matter of time before this issue was raised by the Muslim clergy. It is more than ironic that Dr Selim wants the Irish system changed to accommodate his minority beliefs whereas in countries when Muslims represent the majority they make no effort to accommodate those of other religions (or none).
The reality is that the vast majority of Muslims in Ireland are immigrants to Ireland. That being so, they should have to accept our traditions and standards. But in the main they make no effort to do so. They want change to be a one-way street, i.e. we must change.
As a religion, Muslims are the most intolerant. One only has to look at what is happening in the Middle East and the events in Rotherham. If Dr Selim wants his children educated according to Sharia law then let them establish their own schools. Why should Irish state schools have to introduce change which is not consistent with Irish standards and values just to accommodate Muslims who for example want females segregated from males.
If Muslim immigrants don't like our values and standards (which I think are far preferable to those espoused by Muslims) then they have a choice of returning to their Muslim homeland. I am sure their ISIS co-religionists will welcome them with open arms (sic).

Conan said:

If Dr Selim wants his children educated according to Sharia law then let them establish their own schools.

Click to expand...

I dont agree with this.

No child should have an education which promotes the idea that women have less responsibility in the public sphere than men.

Every child deserves better.

I don't want my children to have to share a world people who have grown up with the idea that women have less rights than men.

There is nothing the Irish people can do to prevent the spread of Islam in Ireland. When we emigrated we spread the ideals of the Roman Catholic Church especially in the UK and USA.

So many of us have abandoned our religion in Ireland and now we are concerned about the increase of the practice of other religions here by immigrants. Attempting to prevent the spread of Islam now is like trying to prevent the sun from rising. Remember Islam is private to people from Islamic countries.

Leper said:

There is nothing the Irish people can do to prevent the spread of Islam in Ireland. When we emigrated we spread the ideals of the Roman Catholic Church especially in the UK and USA.

So many of us have abandoned our religion in Ireland and now we are concerned about the increase of the practice of other religions here by immigrants. Attempting to prevent the spread of Islam now is like trying to prevent the sun from rising. Remember Islam is private to people from Islamic countries.

Click to expand...

We can do a lot to stop the spread of Islam....we can have a coherent immigration policy based on whats best for Ireland and what the Irish people want.
According to the good Dr, there are 65k muslims in Ireland...growing rapidly. Must have moved into Ireland.
Did we need this 65K? How many work?....how many work in servicing their own community only (immigration creating jobs for more immigrants)?....is there any real attempt at integration?

Delboy said:

We can do a lot to stop the spread of Islam....we can have a coherent immigration policy based on whats best for Ireland and what the Irish people want.
According to the good Dr, there are 65k muslims in Ireland...growing rapidly. Must have moved into Ireland.
Did we need this 65K? How many work?....how many work in servicing their own community only (immigration creating jobs for more immigrants)?....is there any real attempt at integration?

Click to expand...

1. Please suggest your guidelines for a coherent immigration policy.
2. If we have 65k Muslims here, so what? How many of Irish emigrated?
3. Any kind of work is good. Ask any of Irish unemployed.
4. What have we done to integrate with our immigrants. As a former emigrant to the UK I was happy at the way the Brits welcomed me.

Leper said:

1. Please suggest your guidelines for a coherent immigration policy.
2. If we have 65k Muslims here, so what? How many of Irish emigrated?
3. Any kind of work is good. Ask any of Irish unemployed.
4. What have we done to integrate with our immigrants. As a former emigrant to the UK I was happy at the way the Brits welcomed me.

Click to expand...

1. Points based entry system to ensure those jobs/industries that are short of professionals, can get them
2. We're not talking about Irish emigrating- you start a new thread for that, but it's a red herring in a debate like this
3. No, not any kind of work is good, i.e. Immigrants opening restaurants to serve their own community and then bringing in kitchen and waiting staff to work there (at min wage at best) is not good employment.
4. What needs to be done outside of normal day to day life to integrate. Kids mix together in schools and creches as mine have done. Adults work together with each other. Sports clubs seem very accommodating, though it seems they need to change their ways to suit the Dr.
Did you get a marching band or something every day you left the house?

I'm in favour of a type of oath of allegiance, like they have in the USA. It would not be jingoistic or even that nationalistic but it should require all Irish citizens to expressly state that they hold the laws of this country above any other laws, be they Catholic Cannon law, Sharia law or the laws of another state. All applicant citizens should be required to swear the oath as a condition of their citizens and all current citizens, be they naturalised or born here, should also have to take it. If they refuse they should lose their right to vote in any local or national election.
If Muslim Clerics or Catholic Priests have a problem with that they are welcome to leave. I don't care if they were born here or not.

Purple said:

I'm in favour of a type of oath of allegiance, like they have in the USA. It would not be jingoistic or even that nationalistic but it should require all Irish citizens to expressly state that they hold the laws of this country above any other laws, be they Catholic Cannon law, Sharia law or the laws of another state.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't sign or swear an oath like that. Although I count myself a law-abiding citizen I reserve the right to conscientiously object to any future law.

T McGibney said:

I wouldn't sign or swear an oath like that. Although I count myself a law-abiding citizen I reserve the right to conscientiously object to any future law.

Click to expand...

You can object all you like but you have to abide by the law.
If you want to change the law then campaign to do so but there is no "higher power" that takes precedence. Objecting is fine but not on the basis of other laws, be they state or religious. That's what I'm aiming for.

We have already has a foreign state inciting Irish citizens to sedition by ordering priests to give precedent to Cannon Law when children were being raped and abused. At least we know that the Vatican is a hostile state and we know that they think their writ should run in this country in cases of alleged criminal activity that involve their employees, agents and citizens. What we don't know is who or what other organisations might hold our laws in the same contempt.

I have no doubt that most Muslims in this country want to live in peace and are happy to accept our culture and laws as they are (even if they might disagree with them). The problem is that debates such as this can often move away from the specifics into jingoistic, xenophobic and downright racist generalisations.

Purple said:

We have already has a foreign state inciting Irish citizens to sedition by ordering priests to give precedent to Cannon Law when children were being raped and abused. At least we know that the Vatican is a hostile state and we know that they think their writ should run in this country in cases of alleged criminal activity that involve their employees, agents and citizens.

Click to expand...

With respect that is a load of baloney, and offensive baloney at that.

Just because the alleged precedence of Canon Law has been cited as a phoney excuse by some churchmen for their own inexcusable inactions in dealing with child abuse allegations and worse doesn't for a second mean that such excuses hold any water whatsoever.

If you think that an Oath of Allegiance to the State is really going to eliminate such bogus excuses, you should perhaps consider that the Canon Law precedence nonsense first surfaced in the context of child abuse cases in the USA, which already has an Oath of Allegiance.

Some more from the Doc and his new book
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...d-seek-integration-not-assimilation-1.1917937

Muslims in Ireland are not interested in assimilation, according to a new book to be published next Thursday.

Muslim children can feel alienated at school.”
He gives an example: “Every year from early November many activities revolve around Christmas. Classrooms are decorated and works of art are visible everywhere in schools. In addition, children spend a lot of time preparing for performances, such as carol services and plays, which are performed at school or in regional competitions.
“Various stories about Santa Claus are told, and the children talk to one another about their expectations. This is reiterated by the wider society, for example, cinema, pantomimes and shopping centres.”
He asks: “Can Muslim children be part of this fun and entertainment? Can this atmosphere be inclusive?”
Dr Selim suggests that “Muslim children can be included in the above-mentioned activities and others, provided that the songs, plays and works of art do not include any words or messages that conflict with Islamic beliefs and ethics.”

Click to expand...

More generally,and where Muslim parents in particular are concerned, Dr Selim points out that “when it comes to shaking hands with members of the opposite sex, most Muslims are reluctant and many of them may refuse. This behaviour does not imply a lack of respect or that the other person is not clean.”
For some Muslims to do so would be “a clear breach Muslim teaching” or “is inconsistent with their culture.” Similarly, “Muslims do not believe in eye contact between members of the opposite sex.” This was “significant for teachers when dealing with Muslim parents.”
Also, and “from a Muslim perspective, members of the same sex can stand very close to each other” but members of the opposite sex are to be kept “at arm’s length. Apart from facial features, the entire body is still. Body language, in this case, is limited to facial features.” This too was “significant when dealing with Muslim parents,” he said.

Click to expand...

So neutralise xmas, or maybe do away with it altogether. Santa = a problem!

Keep them boys and girls at arms length, from the 1st day they start school. Even the teachers must look at the floor or ceiling when talking to the parents at the parent-teacher meeting! And no frowning, smiling, winking, twitching, staring, grimacing....

And this guy is a leading figure in the Muslim community here, the spokesman for them so to speak.

Comical Ali rather than Dr Ali if you ask me