Husband Going Bankrupt in NI - Devastated

Hi Im looking for advice please. My husband has tried an IVA which looks like its failed today. Im absolutely heart broken Im pregnant and we have a toddler. He owes two banks plus one other creditor.

How do we go about this, I have a good job and will be staying in the South but how will I manage two children under two without their father in their lives for the first year. Its so stressful.

Can anyone give me an idea of how this works, I dont want to stress my husband out by asking questions hes upset enough that today didnt go his way. He is self employed and worked so hard, he doesnt owe any 'ordinary guy' money just banks and institutions.

Im being selfish thinking of myself and how I will manage with a new baby and my husband in the North.

How often will he realistically be able to come down, how strict is it going bankrupt there. We've tried everything to avoid going down this route but this is now looking like the only option.

Sorry for moaning Im just so down today. Thanks

Both yourself and your husband should read up on UK bankruptcy in detail in order to give yourselves a good understanding of the process. There are a number of threads on this forum of actual cases. The fact that he is going to NI should not be a major concern re absence as there is no prohibition to him returning home on a regular basis once he has established his COMI other than affordability. I'm assuming that he already has a business or other interest in NI which is why is choosing b'ruptcy there rather than the UK. According to Steve Thatcher (regular contributor on UK bankruptcy) a simple bankruptcy can be wrapped up in less than 12 months. This is not a long period and could be well worth the resultant absence as he will be effectively debt free in 12 months time and can resume normal life. Get some good advice and learn about the process fully.

Thanks Brendan, I will definitely do some reading up on it now, is there anywhere in particular or any company in particular that could be recommended. I've avoided anything bankrupcy related lately as we really thought this IVA would be accepted.

I know in the bigger picture 12 months isnt a long time I guess its just with a new baby its hard.

His family are based in the North so thats the reason hes chosen there.

According to Steve Thatcher the mainland UK process appears to be simpler and shorter than NI process. He seems to provide a good help for those going through the process according to posts on AAM. Look up his website!
Family in the North is probably a good reason to choose NI.
The whole insolvency process is stressful. However carrying a debt burden is far more stressful. He is now taking matters into his own hands and both of you need to look at the bigger picture and realise that there is positivity in this process. With some small effort you could arrange for him to travel down or you to travel up on a weekly basis.

Helpplease;

I have sent people to Ryan Stewart of EvenKeel Financial in Derry City his mobile is 085888531 and have found him good.
Might be no harm to ring him on an exploratory basis and if it suits you ,you can use him.
He has UK + Roi experience.

Sorry to hear your story, it sounds all too familiar. I have been contacted by a few people recently who have also been knocked back in the Northern Ireland system.
As others have said, you should look at your options across the water. Having just exited the Scottish system I have no hesitation in recommending it. Similarly I am sure there are others who could say likewise about the UK (England/ Wales) system.
Have a look at the systems and whatever you do, good luck.
www.irishbankrupt.ie

If the IVA is rejected one can immediately petition for bankruptcy in the North. The north of Ireland can be restrictive re. allowing people to return home on a full-time basis prior to discharge (12 months) - but there's nothing to stop him from returning unofficially on a regular basis to help with the children. The option of moving to mainland UK, having already built up a COMI in NI would involve a lot of additional expense and stress in addition to elongating the entire process by 6 months (new 6 month COMI plus 12 month discharge period). It would be madness to relocate to mainland UK for the purposes of bankruptcy.!!
The other option is to offer more money in the IVA - if possible. The advantage of this approach would be that your husband could return as soon as the IVA is accepted and could then get on with your lives!!! Then, anything he earns will belong to you both, as opposed to having to hand over a percentage of his future earnings to the Official Receiver for up to 3 years - if an Income Protection Order is made against him in the event of bankruptcy.
Think strategically!! How much more money is needed for the IVA to be accepted. If I were you and your husband - I would hand over whatever you and your family can manage. After all - how much money will it cost you if an IPO is granted against you? How much will it cost for your husband to stay in the north for a year? How much will he lose in earnings by having to remain in the north? What are the psychological costs?
Speak to family and friends if needs be - but it makes sense to retry with an improved IVA offer. 65% of the creditors and the PIP have to be convinced that the IVA offer is better for them than bankruptcy. Just say to the PIP that a family member is prepared to help you out with a lump sum IVA, but that a condition of the family member's lump sum offer is that everything is then written off. The primary advantage of the IVA is that there is no discharge period!!

epicaricacy said:

Just say to the PIP that a family member is prepared to help you out with a lump sum IVA, but that a condition of the family member's lump sum offer is that everything is then written off. The primary advantage of the IVA is that there is no discharge period!!

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This is good advice. The only additional thing I'd mention is that the same is true for a DSA. If a DSA is proposed and turned down, then bankruptcy here might be worth thinking about. It's cheaper than in the North and there is no need for your husband to leave or be away from his young family.

epicaricacy - Not sure where you're getting the information regarding 6 months to build a COMI. It's 3 months in Scotland and approx 4-5 months in the UK.

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IB2013 - It's really 6 months in the UK - you apply in the 6th month and have to wait a couple of weeks afterwards to talk with the OR. The vast majority of insolvency companies recommend waiting a full 6 months before even applying for bankruptcy and also suggest hanging around for a month or so afterwards in case the OR needs to meet you more than once. Steve T wrote here that he recommends to his clients that they stay in the UK for a few months afterwards.
It may be 3 months in Scotland - but from reading your own blog it seems that you had to remain in Scotland for a few months afterwards.
The poster's husband is already after building up his COMI in NI. Why relocate now and elongate the whole process?
The husband can drive up and down to see his wive on a regular basis if the new IVA is rejected and he needs to petition for bankruptcy. Surely it's better to be on the same island in case his wife or children become ill. No one can check his movement between the 2 juristictions. What's to stop the husband from spending most of the week in the south - whilst maintaining an address in the north? He could continue to do his shopping on a weekly basis in the North using his Barclay's bank card to prove residency and drive down to his family. He could continue to pay gas / elec etc. in the north. He could maintain his phone and check his post every week - in case the OR has written. It's a no brainer really.
But once again, I'd suggest upping the amount of money offered in the full and final lump sum IVA - as if this is accepted, the husband can immediately return to the south and avoid the 12 month discharge period.

Don't try to buck the system if you apply in the North. Having proposed an IVA in the North is no guarantee that Judge Kelly will make a bankruptcy order without making sure the applicant is in the North for at least a year. Once she also finds out that the family is down south, she will reject it.

The Judge is not in the habit of granting bankruptcy orders for southern debt. She has her own rules which she applies rigorously not worrying about what the Judges in Eng and Wales are doing.

If Eng and Wales are not poss then a DSA back in the South may be accepted, or as has been suggested, a bankruptcy.

Steve

epicaricacy said:

IB2013 - It's really 6 months in the UK - you apply in the 6th month and have to wait a couple of weeks afterwards to talk with the OR. The vast majority of insolvency companies recommend waiting a full 6 months before even applying for bankruptcy and also suggest hanging around for a month or so afterwards in case the OR needs to meet you more than once. Steve T wrote here that he recommends to his clients that they stay in the UK for a few months afterwards.
It may be 3 months in Scotland - but from reading your own blog it seems that you had to remain in Scotland for a few months afterwards.
The poster's husband is already after building up his COMI in NI. Why relocate now and elongate the whole process?
The husband can drive up and down to see his wive on a regular basis if the new IVA is rejected and he needs to petition for bankruptcy. Surely it's better to be on the same island in case his wife or children become ill. No one can check his movement between the 2 juristictions. What's to stop the husband from spending most of the week in the south - whilst maintaining an address in the north? He could continue to do his shopping on a weekly basis in the North using his Barclay's bank card to prove residency and drive down to his family. He could continue to pay gas / elec etc. in the north. He could maintain his phone and check his post every week - in case the OR has written. It's a no brainer really.
But once again, I'd suggest upping the amount of money offered in the full and final lump sum IVA - as if this is accepted, the husband can immediately return to the south and avoid the 12 month discharge period.

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Without wishing to start an argument I can assure you that I applied after 3 months in Scotland and had no problems. I know of many others who did the same. As regards England/ Wales, Steve Thatcher is best placed to answer this question. Anyone I have spoken to has said they applied after 4-5 months.

The length of time you stay after your award of bankruptcy is another matter entirely and has nothing to do with establishing COMI.

www.irishbankrupt.ie

IB2013 - I'm aware that you've wirtten on many occassions that it's 3 months in Scotland to establish your COMI. However, it's obvious from reading your blog that you petitioned for bankruptcy on December 10th 2013, which was 5 months after you moved to Scotland (July 2013). I'm wondering why you chose to wait 5 months before petitioning for Scottish Bankruptcy - especially in lieu of the fact that you keep emphasising 3 months on your blog and again yesterday in your posts on this thread?

In addition, as I'm sure you're aware, establishing the COMI is just the starting point. From reading your blog, it seems as if you had to stay in Scotland for 10 months in total - before your Scottish insolvency specialist informed you it was safe for you to go home. I presume - there is no reason to assume that your Scottish Insolvency Specialist erred in any way by not advising you that it was safe for you to return to Ireland any sooner. Irish People - especially men or women who are away from partners and children - are more interested in the total time they have to spend (10 MONTHS in your case) away from their family as opposed to the time it takes to secure their bankruptcy - which in your case was 5 months. It hardly makes sense to suggest that the poster's husband would be better off going to Scotland - if he will have to spend 10 months there.

IB2013 - I understand that the Scottish process isn't exclusively a postal process and that you have to have a telephone interview with the Scottish equivalent of the UK Official Receiver. It is important to state that - similarily to Scotland - the vast majority of OR interviews in the UK are carried out telephonically. One is usually only called for a face to face interview if massive amounts of money are involved or if the OR believes that one may be withholding the truth. I would also like to point out that one doesn't necessarily get called before a judge / magistrate in the UK as you've written in another post, when you were emphasing the advantages of the system in Scotland over the Eng / Wales system. Often times - especially in simpler / more transparent UK bankruptcies involving Irish people - the Court Clerk will bring your documentation to a judge / magistrate and it will be stamped without you ever being called into the court room at all. Besides, even if you are called before him, it isn't a court room per se in the way one imagines it to be. It is anonymous and involves the magistrate / judge, your solicitor and yourself.

IB2013 - England / Wales - very unwise to petition for bankruptcy after 4 -5 months. In reality, the earliest you should try is during your 6th month. All one has to encounter is a pedantic judge (they exist in the UK as well as in the North of Ireland) and your petition will be adjourned - which, of course, is the last thing any stressed out Irish person needs.

Steve T - what about trying with an improved amount of money (lump sum) for the IVA - especially after spending the time he's spent there already? Is it really the case that Master Kelly requires you to reside in the North for 12 months prior to petitioning or is she more concerned with you remaining for the 12 months after petitioning for bankruptcy - provided you've proven your 6 month COMI when petitioning for bankruptcy? By the way - I wouldn't recommend the North to anyone - but as the poster's husband is there at present, I was wondering what approach would you consider optimal at this juncture?

The increased offer would need to have been made within the two week adjournment period that can be used in the IVA. if not then a new IVA would need to be proposed. I don't think from memory that that can be done for 12 months.

Yes she really does push back applications for bankruptcy past 12 months, even for families who live north with children in education!

epicaricacy said:

IB2013 - I'm aware that it's 3 months in Scotland to establish your COMI. Establishing the COMI is just the starting point. From reading your blog, it seems as if you had to stay in Scotland for at least 8 months in total - before your Scottish insolvency specialist informed you it was safe for you to go home. I presume - there is no reason to assume that your Scottish Insolvency Specialist erred in any way by not advising you that it was safe for you to return to Ireland any sooner. Irish People - especially men or women who are away from partners and children - are more interested in the total time they have to spend (8 MONTHS in your case) away from their family as opposed to the time it takes to secure their bankruptcy (3 months).

IB2013 - I understand that the Scottish process isn't exclusively a postal process and that you have to have a telephone interview with the Scottish equivalent of the UK Official Receiver. It is important to state that - similarily to Scotland - the vast majority of OR interviews in the UK are carried out telephonically. One is usually only called for a face to face interview if massive amounts of money are involved or if the OR believes that one may be withholding the truth. I would also like to point out that one doesn't necessarily get called before a judge / magistrate in the Uk as you've written in another post. Often times - especially in simpler / more transparent UK bankruptcies involving Irish people - the Court Clerk will bring your documentation to a judge / magistrate and it will be stamped without you ever being called into the court room at all (besides, it isn't a court room per se).

IB2013 - England / Wales - very unwise to petition for bankruptcy after 4 -5 months. In reality, the earliest you should try is during your 6th month. All one has to encounter is a pedantic judge (they exist in the UK as well as in the North of Ireland) and your petition will be adjourned - which, of course, is the last thing any stressed out Irish person needs.

Steve T - what about trying with an improved amount of money (lump sum) for the IVA - especially after spending the time he's spent there already? Is it really the case that Master Kelly requires you to reside in the North for 12 months prior to petitioning or is she more concerned with you remaining for the 12 months after petitioning for bankruptcy - provided you've proven your 6 month COMI when petitioning for bankruptcy? By the way - I wouldn't recommend the North to anyone - but as the poster's husband is there at present, I was wondering what approach would you consider optimal at this juncture?

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Steve T - The husband should still have another week to submit an improved IVA as it seems to be within the 2 week adjournment period - as the poster first posted on the 30th October '14.

I didn't realise it was as bad as that up there re. bankruptcy.

Hi help please, I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties. I'm currently getting an IVA proposal and was wondering why your husband's was turned down?

HI everyone thanks for your replies, we're still in limbo, the longer it goes on the more stressed Im becoming. We are arguing alot and its just awful.

Anyway the IVA was adjourned for 7 days last week as two of the banks hadnt come back, one bank adjourned it for 7 days. So 7 days up and that bank havent submitted a vote yet.

So theres only 7 days in it. If they dont reply its taken as a rejection of the IVA.

The company dealing with the IVA are absolutely useless in my opinion its taken over a year for them to put the IVA together constantly requesting the same information over and over again, then ppl left the company and you have to start from scratch with somoene else, its so frustrating.

So Im taking it that this IVA is not going to work, can I ask the following

1. Do you think we should try another IVA with another company maybe a company that has been used by someone here?

2. If it does come to bankrupcy how soon would that be able to begin, my husband seems to think staight away but Im sure its not as easy as that,

3. How long before you see a judge,?

Im now concerned that because Im in the south the judge wouldnt grant bankrupcy in the North.

What a disaster Im due a baby in December and this is driving a huge wedge between us.

Sorry for moaning I know there are far worse things going on in the world I truly do but if anyone could help please let me know.

(1)Jim Stafford posted that certain banks have a policy of refusing IVAs. I would suggest contacting him - as it seems that your husband's IVA attempts are doomed if he is dealing with these particular banks. At least, you will then know if it's worth persevering with the IVA route.

(2)I would also ask him about your husband declaring bankruptcy in the north - as it seems from your post that your husband has spent 12 months up there, so he has more than established his COMI and as a result can immediately petition for bankruptcy.

(3) I'm not so sure that you remaining in the South is really that big an issue. If your husband's debts are exclusively in his name, I don't see why you living in the south would be an issue.

Again though - I would advise contacting Jim Stafford ASAP. Not knowing is often times more corrosive than actual bad news.

We are arguing alot and its just awful.

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Regard this as your immediate priority. Insolvency issues are serious but they are solveable! From working in the area the biggest difficulties are caused by the blame game. i.e. If we/you hadn't done X Y or Z we wouldn't be in this mess. Insolvency is not the end of the world and rather than casting blame or regretting decisions you both need to sit down and draw a line under the past. What happened, happened. You now need to deal with the problem and start working on solutions.
You are expecting a child, which in itself is a great positive. This should also be a Number 1 priority as you don't want all of the negative issues to kill the enjoyment of your new arrival.
Sorry for sounding a bit Nannyish, but I have seen people destroy their lives unnecessarily by driving a wedge between a good relationship over debt problems. I promise you that once you start taking control of your own future you will feel better and hopefully you will have decided that your own relationship, health, well being and that of your future family is a million times more important than any temporary money issues!

Thanks very good advice Brendan, thank you.

I've spoken to someone in Insolvency and shes brilliant really seems to know her stuff (unlike the company we are currently dealing with) I think we will deal with her and try and get this resolved once and for all.

I'll keep you all updated.