Revenue to target pensioners on higher incomes

What part of "Self Assessment" do they not understand?

Why were the likes of Age Action not advising pensioners on their tax obligations?

Is this not why they were set up in the first place?
 
Why the uproar about this?

Because if any spending cuts/tax increase affects older people, you are targeting "the most vulnerable in society".
Age Action Ireland have already said it will cause further hardship of older people. How predictable.

I've no doubt there are many pensioners that what not aware they were not meeting the tax obligations, but if it has to be paid, it has to be paid.
 
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I don't think there is uproar. There is a genuine confusion out there among older people who are probably only hearing about this for the first time. Not sure why Revenue or Social Welfare couldn't have launched a PR campaign to advise people of their obligations last year before sending out letters and cutting people's credits on the 01st January.

To be honest, I didn't know the State Pension was included in taxable income when in receipt of a private pension.

As for the sharing of information, about bloody time. Now, if we could the same with Child benefit and tax that, I would be happy.
 
Sunny,

what I always say is simple - "all income is taxable".


NB: there are actually some exclusions, but the easiest place to start is to assume that ALL income is taxable.

State Pensions are taxable.
 
I agree wit Sunny's points.
I'll be very disappointed if they don't backdate this though.
 
Apparently (didn't hear it myself) there was a woman on to "Joe" claiming that, due to the changes, pensioners are being discriminated against because their 20% tax band and tax credits are being reduced unfairly

This is totally untrue and merely shows a lack of understanding in the tax system

eg - married couple with State pension of €10K each and other pension of €50K

At the moment, without the adjustment, their PAYE is

€50,000 x 20% = €10,000 minus tax credits of €6,600 = PAYE paid of €3,400

Total take home income = €66,600 (€70K less tax of €3,400)


The correct PAYE payable should be

€65,600 @ 20% = €13,120
€4,400 @ 41% = €1,804
Total = €14,924
less Tax Credits of €6,600
Total PAYE payable = €8,324

Total take home income = €61,676


However, unless Revenue start taxing State Pension at source, the only way to ensure that people pay the correct tax is to adjust their PAYE cut-offs & credits

So by reducing their cut-off by the amount of State Pension received, the correct PAYE is paid on the non-State pension

eg -

reduce 20% band by the €20,000 State pension received
reduce tax credits by 20% of the amount of State Pension

Now non-State pension =

€45,600 @ 20 = €9,120
Balance @ 41% = €1,804
Total = €10,924
less Tax Credits = €6,600 less €4,000 (€20K @ 20%) = €2,600
Total PAYE payable = €8,324

Total take home pay = €61,676 which is the same as the correct amount calculated above
 
@DB74 Well Said.

The issue should be why the dept of Finance/Rev. Commissioners and Dept of Social Protection did not do this years ago.
 
I agree wit Sunny's points.
I'll be very disappointed if they don't backdate this though.

There will be murder if they backdate this to look at prior years!

If Age Action are that aggrieved by this they should look at themselves and ask why they weren't informing their customers of what is and isn't taxable. The income is taxable where there is other taxable sources of income - that's not a new development.

I can understand why it's a shock to a lot of people to open the letter and read that you have a potential liability. But, there are pensioners out there who have been declaring and paying tax on it through their Form12 (or reduced tax credits) each year so it is only fair to catch up with the ones who haven't been paying until now. This isn't unfair, it's just making it fairer.

I felt the headlines on some of the evening papers were fairly irresponsible at scare-mongering: I saw one along the lines of "Revenue to hit 115,000 pensioners with €8800 tax bill". For starters, by saying 'bills' they are suggesting that the money is to be colleced in a lumpsum - there are no bills, it will simply be done weekly/monthly through payroll. Second, that level of tax would be paid by a couple who are liable at 41% as they had BOTH exhausted their 20% rateband - so they could have combined private pensions of up to €65,600 before receiving a State pension each. I just felt that headline would scare the life out of a pensioner who is on a small private pension and a State pension, thinking they were going to have to find €8800!
 
There will be murder if they backdate this to look at prior years!

Pensioners as a group have, over the last few years, shown themselves to be the most selfish and self-serving group in Irish society.
I have been given to here before for describing the pensioners who protested outside the Dail when the medical card was removed from over 70’s earning more than €1’350 a week as “scum” but my opinion hasn’t changed.
If the government said that Taxi drivers had been under paying their income tax for years but they weren’t going to back date it because they didn’t do it on purpose there would be uproar. Why doesn’t the same apply for pensioners on good incomes? If they are part of the nebulous but ever growing group called “The Most Vulnerable in Society” (could we just use “MVS” in future?) then they won’t be liable for anything because they won’t be earning enough.
The “Theirs is the generation that built the country” line also fails when held up to scrutiny. The generation now retired is the generation who covered up sexual abuse, allowed the economy to overheat, saw us drop down almost every league table that mattered from literacy to numeracy to productivity and up the ones that we didn’t want to be on like obesity and indebtedness. They made their good decisions and their bad decisions. In short they are no better or worse than my generation or the one coming after me. We don’t have a generation that fought the Second World War, we don’t have that Golden generation, so stop the misty-eyed drivel. Anyway, being a decent skin, a morally upstanding member of society and an all-round good person doesn’t allow you to evade tax.
 
For some strange reason the older I get the more I sympathise with pensioners.....

... though God(figure of speech) help me if I'm as thick as some of the ones i've seen recently on TV looking bewildered and angry at the idea of having to pay tax on their income.

Seems there's need for an organisation to represent intelligent, dynamic and highly attractive old people like me instead of the dodos that so many of my fellow-OAPs appear to be.

Mind you, I am aware that all too quickly one kan loosh wuns mentel faku
l
t
i
.
.
.
 
Pensioners as a group have, over the last few years, shown themselves to be the most selfish and self-serving group in Irish society.
I have been given to here before for describing the pensioners who protested outside the Dail when the medical card was removed from over 70’s earning more than €1’350 a week as “scum” but my opinion hasn’t changed.
If the government said that Taxi drivers had been under paying their income tax for years but they weren’t going to back date it because they didn’t do it on purpose there would be uproar. Why doesn’t the same apply for pensioners on good incomes? If they are part of the nebulous but ever growing group called “The Most Vulnerable in Society” (could we just use “MVS” in future?) then they won’t be liable for anything because they won’t be earning enough.
The “Theirs is the generation that built the country” line also fails when held up to scrutiny. The generation now retired is the generation who covered up sexual abuse, allowed the economy to overheat, saw us drop down almost every league table that mattered from literacy to numeracy to productivity and up the ones that we didn’t want to be on like obesity and indebtedness. They made their good decisions and their bad decisions. In short they are no better or worse than my generation or the one coming after me. We don’t have a generation that fought the Second World War, we don’t have that Golden generation, so stop the misty-eyed drivel. Anyway, being a decent skin, a morally upstanding member of society and an all-round good person doesn’t allow you to evade tax.


Purple
I agree with the main points in your post; pensioners should not be treated and different regarding tax arrears.

However I think you are far too liberal with generalizations regarding their " generation" and what they allegedly have done.

My parents are of this generation and I immediately thought that they would be horrified to read your post.
 
Purple
I agree with the main points in your post; pensioners should not be treated and different regarding tax arrears.

However I think you are far too liberal with generalizations regarding their " generation" and what they allegedly have done.

My parents are of this generation and I immediately thought that they would be horrified to read your post.


My parents are of that generation as well. I can't see any evidence that their generation is any better than the one that came after them. In fact I think the one that came after them (my generation) is better adjusted, more liberal, less tolerant of crime and gombeenism, more educated and just as hard working. I suspect that the one coming after me will be better again.
 
My problem is your use of the term "generation" as if they acted in unison.

All the bad things that happened- child abuse and the cover ups, corruption etc. were effected by individuals making conscious decisions and cannot be attributed to a general group.
 
My problem is your use of the term "generation" as if they acted in unison.

All the bad things that happened- child abuse and the cover ups, corruption etc. were effected by individuals making conscious decisions and cannot be attributed to a general group.

I'm just pointing out that pensioners aren't some group to which we all own a debt of some sort. This is especially the case if you work in the Public Sector where the debt is owed by the pensioners to those who are being bled to pay for their pensions.
 
I'm just pointing out that pensioners aren't some group to which we all own a debt of some sort. This is especially the case if you work in the Public Sector where the debt is owed by the pensioners to those who are being bled to pay for their pensions.

Fully agree.
 
I'm just pointing out that pensioners aren't some group to which we all own a debt of some sort. This is especially the case if you work in the Public Sector where the debt is owed by the pensioners to those who are being bled to pay for their pensions.

It should be pointed out that Public Sector pensioners are unlikely to be effected by the policy that the current Government are correctly pursuing in ensuring that all pensioners are tax compliant.

I believe I am correct in stating that pre 1995 Public Sector employees cannot claim the State Old Age Pension & as such their pensions are being correctly taxed at source by their previous employer & in reality they did not have the opportunity to evade tax either by accident or design in not declaring income from an occupational pension & a State pension.
 
DeiseBlue, that assumes they worked in PS all their lives and only paid PRSI class D.

If so, then yes, they won't get a PRSI pension.
 
DeiseBlue, that assumes they worked in PS all their lives and only paid PRSI class D.

If so, then yes, they won't get a PRSI pension.

Thanks for that.

I presume it's fair to say that typically pre 1995 Public Sector employees will not receive any State OAP but will simply receive an occupational pension ?
 
Thanks for that.

I presume it's fair to say that typically pre 1995 Public Sector employees will not receive any State OAP but will simply receive an occupational pension ?

I agree. It's still a state funded pension though the state is dipping its hand into current public sector employees pockets to make sure that said retirees don't take any pain.
 
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