Water Charges - Landlords ultimately Liable - response from Irish Water

dillons

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I am posting this separately as landlords need to be aware that their liability is basically in the hands of the tenant & whether they chose to register or not.

I just received the below reply from Irish Water to my questions and concerns as a landlord.

It is very clear from this response that if the tenant does not register, the landlord will be liable BUT they are not accepting registration details on behalf of tenants from the landlord so it's really dependent on the tenant registering & paying

Landlords are going to be screwed on this. I wonder what percentage of tenants will actually register themselves??

'Thank you for your email regarding your rented property. The tenant needs to apply for the allowances themselves, the landlord can not do so on their behalf.
Once the tenant registers the account in their name they are liable for the payments and any unpaid bills they will be liable for.
You will receive notification during the month of October to inform you whether or not they have registered.
You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register and fail to pay the bill.
As regards the sale of the property in the event of an unpaid bill, the amount due will stay with the tenant who is liable and not the property.'

I have replied to them seeking clarification on the last statement as I do not understand how the tenant will be liable on the sale of the property if they never registered in the first place!

This is a mess.
 
This is not true that landlords are liable. The occupier according to the legislation is liable. Irish water are telling porkies. I am currently waiting for their reply to this from me and they are fobbing me off. My question to them was way more specific than yours.

They haven't a leg to stand on stateing landlords are liable

(this thread should be merged with the other one)
 
I am not doubting Bronte here, just wonder
Are the two bits here not required to make the LL liable
You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register and fail to pay the bill.

If the form is not filled out by either party, there is no allowance granted and they bill based on their estimate of occupancy, as provided by Revenue.

What is at issue here is not repeating the problems with tenants leaving large utility bills like we have with elec and gas at present
 
The following clarification was posted on the Irish Water website yesterday (15/10/14):

Clarification on responsibility of water charges payment
  • If you live in a house you own, you are responsible for payment of the water charges and should register with Irish Water in order to claim your allowances.
  • If you rent a property, you are responsible for the payment of the water charges for that property and should register with Irish Water in order to claim your allowances.
  • If you own a property that is unoccupied you are responsible for payment of the water charges and should register with Irish Water to ensure you are charged the ‘unoccupied’ rate.
  • If you have a tenant in a property, the tenant is responsible for the payment of the water charge and should register with Irish Water in order to claim their relevant allowances.
  • If the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the bill. Irish Water will announce details of this shortly.
  • Should the tenant move out of the property without closing the account, the tenant remains responsible for the payment and Irish Water will follow this up in the standard ways.

 
I note your comments Sarenco.
So why did Minister Noonan say on the radio today that "Landlords would be ultimately responsible for the water charges if the tenant did not register or pay. His solution was for landlords to raise the rent to allow for this. You can only increase rent once a year.
You have a crazy situation here if the above is correct as follows:
Landlord cannot register the tenant or make the tenant register.
If the tenant registers that does not guarantee that the tenant will pay.
If the tenant does not pay the landlord will "ultimately be responsible".
If the tenant leaves without paying the bill and the water pressure is turned down it would follow from Minister Noonan's remarks that before it is turned up that the outstanding bill will have to be paid by the landlord.
Minister Noonan's remarks makes a joke of other Government ministers and spokespersons that the metering was a way of promoting water conservation. If Minister Noonan's remarks are correct tenants can use as much water as they like and not pay a cent.
Minister Noonan's remarks will have the effect of promoting the idea that tenants would be fools to register or pay.
Irish water need to clarify this matter unambiguously as well as many other matters. The whole matter is a joke for a company which has cost in the region of €180m to set up.
 
Seems clear enough to me

16/10/14 - Irish Water website

Who is responsible for paying the water charges for a rental property?
As a tenant:
If you rent a property, you are responsible for the payment of the water charges for that property and you should complete an application in order to claim your allowances.

As a landlord:
If you own a property that is unoccupied you are responsible for payment of the water charges and should register with Irish Water to ensure you are charged the ‘not permanently occupied charge’ .
If you have a tenant living in a property, the tenant is responsible for the payment of the water charge and should register with Irish Water in order to claim their relevant allowances.
If the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the water bill. Irish Water will announce details of this shortly.
Should the tenant move out of the property without closing the account, the tenant remains responsible for the payment and Irish Water will follow this up in the standard ways.
 
I note your comments Sarenco.
So why did Minister Noonan say on the radio today that "Landlords would be ultimately responsible for the water charges if the tenant did not register or pay. His solution was for landlords to raise the rent to allow for this. You can only increase rent once a year.
.

Noonan is incorrect. Irish water are backtracking on this. See the newtalk 'news' on this or listen to Drivetime yesterday.

What they have not done is tell us landlords how we prove we are not occupiers. But they will get there, one of these days.
 
Its a shambles. However the local authorities seem to be forcing the issue to a head with the letters to their tenants.
 
As a landlord:


If the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the water bill. Irish Water will announce details of this shortly.

This seems to contradict the statement that the landlord cannot give details of tenants to Irish Water for 'Data Protection' reasons. So I wonder how Irish Water contacting the property owner will ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the water bill if they won't accept tenant details from Landlord

A total joke but at least it's getting some coverage now so should get resolved, more red faces for irish water though!
 
'Thank you for your email regarding your rented property. The tenant needs to apply for the allowances themselves, the landlord can not do so on their behalf.
Once the tenant registers the account in their name they are liable for the payments and any unpaid bills they will be liable for.
You will receive notification during the month of October to inform you whether or not they have registered.
You the landlord will only be liable if they fail to register and fail to pay the bill.
As regards the sale of the property in the event of an unpaid bill, the amount due will stay with the tenant who is liable and not the property.'

I have replied to them seeking clarification on the last statement as I do not understand how the tenant will be liable on the sale of the property if they never registered in the first place!

I did get another reply from Irish Water dancing around my questions and not providing any clear answers but they finished the email with a reminder of the security notices at the bottom. A nice veiled warning not to circulate it. I guess their watching the forums!
 
This seems to contradict the statement that the landlord cannot give details of tenants to Irish Water for 'Data Protection' reasons. So I wonder how Irish Water contacting the property owner will ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the water bill if they won't accept tenant details from Landlord

On this new modern pheonoma of 'data protection'. I understood the only issue was around the PRSI number.

All Irish landlords have the PRSI numbers of their tenants (I mean of course legit landlords before anyone makes a comment)

We cannot divulge this to anyone other than the PRTB.

I have had no problem in the past giving my tenants details to the ESB and Bord Gais. I cannot remember now, but ESB is more helpful. I would do this when I change from a tenant to my name and then back to the new tenant. ESB just writes a letter to the new tenant, send me the bill and closes my liability. A fairly simple process.

With Irish Water, because I'm so cross with hanging on the phone and the stuff I've had to listen to from their incompetent and badly trained staff, plus the email non responses I've received, I will be doing as the IPOA has suggested and I'm not helping Irish Water one bit.

I've also helped the ESB out where a tenant has tried to do a runner. I give them either their new address or their workplace.
 
Incorrect, most councils are saying it has nothing to do with them

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...tay-out-of-tenants-billing-disputes-1.1966840

Also the Irish Property owners association is saying the same thing.

I was referring to this. I should have been specific.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1016/652691-irish-water/

Meath County Council has confirmed that it has written to all Rental Accommodation Scheme tenants advising them that they could face eviction if they do not pay their water charges.

The letter referred to the Tenants' Obligations to the Landlord in the Residential Tenancy Agreement.
 
If tenants cause the electricity to be cut-off and leave and won't pay up, the landlord has to be reconnection fees.

No difference as far as I can see.
 
That another system thats broken. From a LL pov.

LL should really have a deposit that covers all of these. Which would be a 2~3 month deposit in reality.
 
On this new modern pheonoma of 'data protection'. I understood the only issue was around the PRSI number.

All Irish landlords have the PRSI numbers of their tenants (I mean of course legit landlords before anyone makes a comment)

We cannot divulge this to anyone other than the PRTB.

I have had no problem in the past giving my tenants details to the ESB and Bord Gais. I cannot remember now, but ESB is more helpful. I would do this when I change from a tenant to my name and then back to the new tenant. ESB just writes a letter to the new tenant, send me the bill and closes my liability. A fairly simple process.

With Irish Water, because I'm so cross with hanging on the phone and the stuff I've had to listen to from their incompetent and badly trained staff, plus the email non responses I've received, I will be doing as the IPOA has suggested and I'm not helping Irish Water one bit.

I've also helped the ESB out where a tenant has tried to do a runner. I give them either their new address or their workplace.


Exactly, that is why I sent a registered letter with my Tenants names and address matched to the application pack number to Irish Water. If they can get my details from the PRTB then they can get the Tenants including their PRSI number from the PRTB.
 
The fact that Irish Water (IW) has now implicitly acknowledged that their previous position on this issue was not supported by the relevant legislation is obviously to be welcomed. The decision to communicate this about-turn as a "clarification", without any apology, possibly gives us some indication of the general approach and culture of IW. However, it would be churlish not to acknowledge the fact that IW has, at long last, acknowledged that it was wrong on this issue.

Having said that, there are a number of issues with the "clarification":
 
Exactly, that is why I sent a registered letter with my Tenants names and address matched to the application pack number to Irish Water. If they can get my details from the PRTB then they can get the Tenants including their PRSI number from the PRTB.

As you can see on another related thread where I suggested doing this I totally agree with this and I have already done this myself.
 
Firstly, IW are now saying that "if the tenant has not registered with Irish Water, Irish Water will contact the property owner to ensure that the responsible party (ie the tenant) receives the bill". However, as Bronte points out above, IW has no way of knowing that a tenant is in place without checking with the PRTB. There is simply no facility in place for landlords to notify IW that a tenancy is in place in respect of a particular property. If IW checked the position with the PRTB (which they are entitled to do under the legislation) they would have all the necessary details on the relevant tenants and there would be no need to contact the property owner.
 
Secondly, as already pointed out by dillons, if a landlord could not provide IW with tenant details (including their names) prior to 31 October (or whatever arbitrary date is set by IW) due to data protection concerns (and I am of the opinion that IW are actually correct on this point), then it is unclear how this information could be provided after this date. In other words, what magically happens to make this issue disappear? The reference in the "clarification" to IW announcing details of this "shortly" smacks of long-fingering the problem.
 
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