stop blaming mortgage holders

Ryandd

Registered User
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Hi - Over the past few days Ive heard alot about debt forgivness and helping distressed mortgage holders, I am one of those people struggling with mortgage repayments, this time last year there was two of us working and had borrowed to purchase a house now in worth half of what we paid for it. We borrowed what was in our means to borrow at the time, and what the banks were advising we could borrow. We weren't reckless we thought we made a good investment in buying our home as this was the advice we were given, I remember Bertie Ahern at the time dismissing David Mc Williams suggestion that the property market had got out of control, banks were given targets to lend and there were even mortgage products encouraging parents to release equity from their own homes to help out their children. It was a government campaign to get people to purchase houses as they were gaining from sales of houses and banks were getting richer. It was alway a win win situation for the previous government as they walked away with lump sums and bankers have not yet been brought to justice. I would also like to stress that 55,000 people are in trouble with their mortgages not because they were reckless, it mainly because of Job loss caused by this economic mess. Mortgages would not be in this condition if Jobs were saved, thats another rant for another Day! I get annoyed with bodies that suggest for one minute that people were reckless we invested in property not to make money but to raise our families and provide a safe home, so please try to look at this from that point of view.
 
I'm afraid they have to share part of the blame. They fuelled the demand, many lied about their income. It was a state sponsored ponsi scheme. Some people recognised it as such, many did not.
 
1. We borrowed what was in our means to borrow at the time,

2. and what the banks were advising we could borrow.

3. We weren't reckless

4. we thought we made a good investment in buying our home as this was the advice we were given,

5. I remember Bertie Ahern at the time dismissing David Mc Williams suggestion that the property market had got out of control,

6. banks were given targets to lend

7. and there were even mortgage products encouraging parents to release equity from their own homes to help out their children.

8. It was a government campaign to get people to purchase houses as they were gaining from sales of houses and banks were getting richer. .

I'm assuming that for these 8 reasons your purchased your home.

1. How much did you borrow and what was your income and what was the purchase price and how much of a deposit did you have?

2. Can you clarify the advice the bank gave you, did they say you can borrow as much as x and did you borrow x or less

3. Cannot tell if you were reckless until you give cold hard figures and location and type of property

4. Who gave you the advice that this home was a good investment? What exactly was that advice

5. How did Bertie Ahern affect your decision to purchase a home

6. So? Banks always have targets to lend?

7. What bank product are you referring to? Did your parents help you in the purchase?

8. Which government campaign are you referring to?

Do you now have a home in which to raise a family?
 
This isn't about blaming anyone, the mortgage holders, the banks or the politicans.

This is about personal responsibilty. In this country, we need to be over 18 to legally sign a contract to buy a house. At this age we are presumed to be an adult, to be able to weight up our options and make a decision. Sometimes these decisons work out well, sometimes they don't.
As a society, if we walk away from the consequences of our actions, it leads to anarchy.

We can't be selective in choosing when we want to be treated like an adult and be held accountable for our decisions, and when we want to walk away from the consequences of our decisions.

The above might sound heartless to struggling families, but ultimately we all signed these contracts, nobody put a gun to our heads. Its not as if renting a house was made illegal, and we had no option but to buy a house.
 
Bronte,

in relation to point 7, I am assuming the OP is refering to Life Loan products that have since been discontinued in several (if not all) banks. For over 65's, these products released equity on the value of the house with no repayments until the passing of such applicant.

Found a link here that Brendan posted: http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=20109
 
I agree with Ryandd, we all new there were risks taking out mortgages but the ordinary joe hadn't a clue that this economic car crash was coming down the tracks. What ever about the banks these people were trained and educated in their field so they should have had some idea. How could the ordinary joe have predicted so many job loses, people who were lucky to keep their jobs see their wages halve, house prices to halve. So we the people bail out the banks and now we expect the banks to cut some sort of a deal with indebted mortgage holders..what a laugh. And this new group of experts set up to advise the government on mortgage relief are made up of civil servants and bankers the same bunch of clowns that got us into this mess. The people who say that the mortgae holders should have known the risks and its their own fault, these people make me want to puke. We know what side these people are on, the side of the fat cat and banker who just want to see ordinary joe of this country suffer....rant over
 
How could the ordinary joe have predicted so many job loses, people who were lucky to keep their jobs see their wages halve, house prices to halve

Anyone who had lived through the 1980s should have had a very good idea that this was a possibility, however remote. It wasn't as if this sort of collapse had never happened before.
 
I'm not a financial whiz or economist.

However, I do remember driving around Tallaght in about 2005 and being shocked at all the new estates that had sprung up. Hundreds and hundreds of apartments. They seemed to have popped out of no-where. I knew they all couldn't be 'worth' €400k, or whatever crazy price they were.

I knew then that these houses were going to drop in cost. What I didn't expect was the scale of the bust. I didn't think for a minute that the banks would all go bust etc...
 
Hi no this wasn't a life product it was a mortgage product called Family First with EBS
 
Personally I'm delighted I was egged into buying a house in 2001, I thought it was great that the bank gave 3.5 times my salary, and 1.5 times my wife's. the norm was 3+1, took a 25 year variable rate mortgage, 94% financing and they took the €3000 first time buyers grant into the deposit. Crazy stuff!...... seriously though, even in that scenario, we thought we were pushing our luck. the madness that followed is exactly that, madness....
 
No one is blaming mortgage holders. But they will have to accept that they enterered into an agreement of their own volition and that comes with responsibilities.

As an aside, as the income winner of a renting family I find it annoying to hear mortgage holders go on about how they had to provide a home for their family, and the only way of doing this was by buying. In this case the OP actually says "provide a safe home". Presumably my rented home isn't safe. We've also had a recent poster on AAM state that if he couldn't buy a home his family would just "drift apart". Home ownership is not a human right - shelter is. No one is entitled to own a home. If you can secure the deposit and credit, and make the repayments on their legal debts then enjoy home ownership. If you can't, then you'll have to seek alternative arrangements.

Mortgage holders entered into legally binding agreements, and no amount of unfortunate circumstances will change that. Unfortunately, I think there is a trickle down or creep effect that comes from the rotten political class of the country. After all, if politicians, developers and bankers are all on the take why shouldn't we be?
 
Hi Bugler - In some respects your correct on definition of family home but when banks were lending, it was highlighted that renting was paying dead money when you can be working to pay for a property what you could hopefully own one day and provide security for your family - this would have been my wish which was why i expressed family home in this way.
 
Ryandd, I would be interested to see what your reply is to Bronte's points above.

In relation to your last comment, banks didn't have exclusivity on that comment and in fairness, the Banks have marketing departments so they are going to gloss things up to sell their products. It doesn't mean you have to buy into it.
 
Greensquare
I understand where your coming from and I absolutley take full responsibility for choices I made, but you have to agree no ordinary hard working decent person could have known what was coming and for that reason I feel there where people in higher ranks, economist shouting from the roof tops but all these were rubbished by the government at the time and the country was told that we were in a healthy state and I'm afraid I believed them. If people knew what was coming there would have been people rushing to sell their houses and not remortgaging but this wasn't the case. People buying up property because it was deemed to be the wise move. when you see the news and the reports on regulation or lack of, where lending was concerned and the likes of Anglo bank doing deals to make them look healthier than they were it makes me angry.
 
I'm not a financial whiz or economist.

However, I do remember driving around Tallaght in about 2005 and being shocked at all the new estates that had sprung up. Hundreds and hundreds of apartments. They seemed to have popped out of no-where. I knew they all couldn't be 'worth' €400k, or whatever crazy price they were.

I knew then that these houses were going to drop in cost. What I didn't expect was the scale of the bust. I didn't think for a minute that the banks would all go bust etc...


My own ephiney was when we were looking to buy a house, went to look at a 5 bedroom in a new estate and realised that not only could we not get a bed into one of the 5 bedrooms (and I don't mean it would be tight, I mean, you actually, physically could not get a bed into this "bedroom", ), if we put a small shed in the back garden, we'd have no room for anything else. For that, they were looking for €500k.

I have sympathy for some people, like the OP, who have had changed circumstances and are struggling as a result. Given that a mortgage is a long term contract, they should be given all the support that is feasible to get them back on track.

However, I have no sympathy for those who got 110% mortgages, who topped up to furnish the house, buy cars, go on holidays, racked up debts on designer shoes, Waterford Crystal door handles or whatever the hell else they wasted money on. Why should my money go to bail those out? They had the fun, now pay for it
 
Locke
Yes banks have marketing departments that all do a great Job and no you don't have to buy into it and its a choice made based on factors like financial stability, current employment, economics, and the fact that house prices where predicted to be on the rise not collapse, at the time I bought in and I choose to buy, I am making the point that mortgage holders are said to have been reckless with borrowing and I feel its unfair to say given the trends and policies government adopted with the area around lending and regulating banks. Im not attacking any one area just a number of factors have to be considered before making judgment on mortgage holders
 
Bronte
Firstly Im not asking for your opinion weather I was reckless in buying a home or not, the point is I wasn't deemed reckless when signing for my home and more importantly I didn't feel reckless because at the time I was financial able to make that purchase, so knowing point 3 or any other point of your report is of no help to anyone in a dreadful situation we find ourselves in today
 
This really doesn't need to always turn into a blame game discussion - at the end of it all it doesn't matter whose fault it is - it happened and now we need to try and find a way to solve it. It also doesn't have to turn into the judgemental game - people are in dire straits - people are lying awake at night worrying themselves sick - my financial situation is pretty bad but thankfully it's not as bad as it could be - I don't know how people with children cope both financially and emotionally. Where is the compassion and understanding - we are not in arrears because we don't want to pay our bills but because we can't. In an ideal world we would downsize and pay our bills - can't do that when house is worth 1/3 of what we paid for it and 1/2 of what we owe on the mortgage. I just wish people could see beyond the facts and figures and statistics.
 
people had the misfortune of coming of age in a certain time frame, they didnt want to rent and raise a family, our rental market isnt that suited for that,
I'd imagine the next generation wont touch property even if they can get the mortgage
 
Crazyone
your right we all just want to earn a wage to pay our bills, mortgage and provide for our children, we are in a desperate situation and there is no solutions and the original point I was making was not to blame the people for taking out mortgages. There was a programme on prime time where it mentioned that there should be more repossessions on family homes which is mad as families have only got the roof over their heads and there is no such scheme to deal with all the families that would be out on the street, it was a crazy statement to make and will only cause more hurt to people in already awful circumstances.
 
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