does israel get all of gaza when all the palestiains are dead and can they build hous

I didn't get that from it at all. I got that the post Arab spring government in Egypt was overthrown by the Army (which if course it was; so much for democracy!) and that government, along with other more pro Western states in the region, were opposed staying silent in the face of Israeli bombings in Gaza because they hate Hamas. I haven't read anything in the Irish Times pointing out who and what Hamas are and what they stand for or what they have done. The implication is Egypt etc are oblivious to Palestinian suffering because they have an anti Hamas political agenda. The reality is that no Arab country in the region cares about the Palestinian people beyond how they can be used to further their own political agenda. This is most true of the states that support Hamas and oppose the existence of Israel.
The writer is not pro Hamas but he's not against them either. If it is pointed out that Hamas are terrorist scum then Israel can't be the bad guys so the nature of Hamas can't be overtly acknowledged.

In the Q&A page of the Irish times yesterday an article by Mark Weiss asking why 95% of Israelis support the current military action it states that "Israelis believe they are under attack from an Islamic Fundamentalist organisation dedicated to destroying Israel, which sees the very existence of a Jewish state as anathema." Why is the work "believe" used, as if it's an opinion and open to debate? The statement is a fact, unequivocally. It is not a creation of Israeli paranoia or media spin or bias. It is a factual summation of the stated aims and political ideology of Hamas. It opposes everything we in Ireland stand for, every liberal value and freedom we cherish. It is the enemy of all we hold dear.

Purple said:

In the Q&A page of the Irish times yesterday an article by Mark Weiss asking why 95% of Israelis support the current military action it states that "Israelis believe they are under attack from an Islamic Fundamentalist organisation dedicated to destroying Israel, which sees the very existence of a Jewish state as anathema." Why is the work "believe" used, as if it's an opinion and open to debate? The statement is a fact, unequivocally. It is not a creation of Israeli paranoia or media spin or bias. It is a factual summation of the stated aims and political ideology of Hamas. It opposes everything we in Ireland stand for, every liberal value and freedom we cherish. It is the enemy of all we hold dear.

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and yet the public mood here seems to be very much against Israel....I wonder why that is!

A thought on proportionality. In the Second World War, Japan lost 2 million soldiers and 500,000 civilians. USA lost 400,000 soldiers (many of these in the European theatre) and 12,000 civilians (9,000 of which were in the merchant marine).

Duke of Marmalade said:

A thought on proportionality. In the Second World War, Japan lost 2 million soldiers and 500,000 civilians. USA lost 400,000 soldiers (many of these in the European theatre) and 12,000 civilians (9,000 of which were in the merchant marine).

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The Allied killed 50'000 French civilians during their bombing raids in the run up to D-Day and the weeks that followed. Of the 350'000 in total who were killed it is reasonable to assume that at least a quarter were killed by the Allies.

blueband said:

and yet the public mood here seems to be very much against Israel....I wonder why that is!

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Because we have a very anti-Israeli media. RTE and the Irish Times are anti-Israeli, they border on plain old anti-Semitism. That's the point I'm making.

I think you are being a bit hard on the media, what we are seeing on the news and reading in the papers is whats actually happening, and its very sad.

blueband said:

I think you are being a bit hard on the media, what we are seeing on the news and reading in the papers is whats actually happening, and its very sad.

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They are not reporting that what kicked this off was a video released by Hamas showing some of their soldiers/members/terrorists existing a tunnel within Israel. This caused a panic within Israel that they could be attacked with impunity and that their border was not secure. The number of missile attacks on Israel by Hamas, from Gaza, also escalated. The average for the first 6 months of the year was 30 per month but in July the figure was 2874 (source). The objective of Hamas was to goad Israel into a land offensive. They want a war. They want the suffering and death of their own people. In their minds it is an acceptable sacrifice in order to further their goal of causing a broader war in the region which will destroy Israel. This is not reported in the Irish media. What's happening in Gaza is reported and it's tragic and sickening but the why is not reported. That's where I have a problem.

Purple said:

They are not reporting that what kicked this off was a video released by Hamas showing some of their soldiers/members/terrorists existing a tunnel within Israel. This caused a panic within Israel that they could be attacked with impunity and that their border was not secure. The number of missile attacks on Israel by Hamas, from Gaza, also escalated. The average for the first 6 months of the year was 30 per month but in July the figure was 2874 (source). The objective of Hamas was to goad Israel into a land offensive. They want a war. They want the suffering and death of their own people. In their minds it is an acceptable sacrifice in order to further their goal of causing a broader war in the region which will destroy Israel. This is not reported in the Irish media. What's happening in Gaza is reported and it's tragic and sickening but the why is not reported. That's where I have a problem.

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but surely a hamas couldn't possibly hope to win a land offensive, it would be a david and goliath situation!

blueband said:

but surely a hamas couldn't possibly hope to win a land offensive, it would be a david and goliath situation!

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They are trying to cause a broader conflict in the region. We can see how the US invasion of Iraq destabilised the region and has led, in no small part, to the conflict in Syria and the broadening of support for extremist groups in the Region and, most worryingly, the emergence of ISIS. Hamas are an extremist fundamentalist Islamic group who want the same thing as ISIS (but their own version). The death of their own people is a price they are more than willing to pay. Their goal is the destruction of Israel and the formation of a fundamentalist state in greater Palestine. To them any means will justify those ends.

Purple said:

They are not reporting that what kicked this off was a video released by Hamas showing some of their soldiers/members/terrorists existing a tunnel within Israel. This caused a panic within Israel that they could be attacked with impunity and that their border was not secure. The number of missile attacks on Israel by Hamas, from Gaza, also escalated. The average for the first 6 months of the year was 30 per month but in July the figure was 2874 (source). The objective of Hamas was to goad Israel into a land offensive. They want a war. They want the suffering and death of their own people. In their minds it is an acceptable sacrifice in order to further their goal of causing a broader war in the region which will destroy Israel. This is not reported in the Irish media. What's happening in Gaza is reported and it's tragic and sickening but the why is not reported. That's where I have a problem.

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I am not getting involved in a discussion about Israel and Gaza because I know where it will end but isn't what you what you described above (and I don't have an issue with it) a damning indictment of Israeli (and the International Communities) policies towards Gaza.

2,874 rockets were fired by a terrorist organistaion into Israel (During a conflict). 3 people were killed and 41 injured. (Your source says 6 killed but I think included the 3 Israeli's murdered at the start of all this). Most of the rockets were intercepted by Israel's sophisticated missile defence system. In response, Israel used it's Navy, Air Force and Ground Forces to attack one of the smallest most densely populated areas in the world. Nearly 2000 people die and Israel claim they killed 900 terrorists so that means more then one in two killed by Israeli fire were civillian. Meanwhile civillians in Gaza can't go anywhere. There are hundreds of thousands of people displaced with no chance of rebuilding homes. There is no escape because Israel and Eygpt have closed their borders and Israel controls their airspace and coastline.

Hamas can't destroy Israel. Even Iran have pretty much washed their hands of Hamas in recent years. People go on about Hamas rethoric about wanting to destroy Israel but there has been plenty of rethoric from the far right element within Israel. Check out the lovely Foreign Minster and his views.

And yet Israel allows themselves to be dragged into a conflict like this. They destroyed tunnels, they killed terrorists, they destroyed rockets but Israel lost this battle. You are going to see a hardening of support for Hamas and it is going to become a rallying call for Islamic fundamentalists all over the region. And we are right back the beginning again and we will be back here in 12-24 months. And it goes on and on and on and on. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so bloody depressing.

Sunny said:

I am not getting involved in a discussion about Israel and Gaza because I know where it will end but isn't what you what you described above (and I don't have an issue with it) a damning indictment of Israeli (and the International Communities) policies towards Gaza.

2,874 rockets were fired by a terrorist organistaion into Israel. 3 people were killed and 41 injured. (Your source says 6 killed but I think included the 3 Israeli's murdered at the start of all this). Most of the rockets were intercepted by Israel's sophisticated missile defence system. In response, Israel used it's Navy, Air Force and Ground Forces to attack one of the smallest most densely populated areas in the world. Nearly 2000 people die and Israel claim they killed 900 terrorists so that means more then one in two killed by Israeli fire were civillian. Meanwhile civillians in Gaza can't go anywhere. There are hundreds of thousands of people displaced with no chance of rebuilding homes. There is no escape because Israel and Eygpt have closed their borders and Israel controls their airspace and coastline.

Hamas can't destroy Israel. Even Iran have pretty much washed their hands of Hamas in recent years. People go on about Hamas rethoric about wanting to destroy Israel but there has been plenty of rethoric from the far right element within Israel. Check out the lovely Foreign Minster and his views.

And yet Israel allows themselves to be dragged into a conflict like this. They destroyed tunnels, they killed terrorists, they destroyed rockets but Israel lost this battle. You are going to see a hardening of support for Hamas and it is going to become a rallying call for Islamic fundamentalists all over the region. And we are right back the beginning again and we will be back here in 12-24 months. And it goes on and on and on and on. The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so bloody depressing.

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I agree Sunny. The dominance of the right-wing elements in Israel over the last decade and the general movement towards a more fundamentalist state is disturbing, worrying and disappointing. The problem is that Hamas and Hezbollah do not want a two state settlement and have done everything they can to undermine any and all agreements that allow for that solution. The closest thing to peace was the establishment of the Palestinian Authority under the PLO but both of the aforementioned groups, as well as a sizable proportion of the PLO itself, were vehemently opposed to that agreement and did all they could to make sure it failed. When Arafat saw which way the wind was blowing he also jumped ship. Elements within Israel, some at governmental level, also opposed the agreement and did all they could to undermine it.
There are no good guys here, just millions of people that are being used as pawns in other peoples games.

Duke of Marmalade said:

A thought on proportionality. In the Second World War, Japan lost 2 million soldiers and 500,000 civilians. USA lost 400,000 soldiers (many of these in the European theatre) and 12,000 civilians (9,000 of which were in the merchant marine).

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In fairness the Japanese were busy killing 3-4 million Chinese soldiers and 10 or 11 million Chinese civilians (that's not including the 5 million who died of disease and hunger). Then there was the 57'000 Philippine soldiers etc,

Hamas are avowed to remove Israel from the map; I presume a final solution ala Adolf would be to their liking.

So when someone enters this debate they should ask themselves are they for or against the Hamas objectives. No half way house. If you are for Hamas then I suggest that you have no moral authority whatsoever to criticise Israel's actions; given the chance, Hamas would be 10000% worse.

I hope that most people would be vehemently anti Hamas, though when I see the slogans at the protests I wonder.

If you are vehemently against Hamas then you do have the moral right to question the proportionality of the Israeli defence.

That's why I invoked WWII. Most commentators accept that this was indeed a war between good guys and bad guys. And the good guys dished it out in multiples of the what the bad guys did. America with one atomic bomb killed 30 times more civilians than they lost in the whole war.

This is where the discussion always gets ridiculous. It always seems to boil down that you are either pro Israeli or pro Hamas. It's nonsense.

You say that Hamas have vowed to wipe Israel off the map. Check out some comments from senior Israeli politicians including the foreign minister. Back in the 1990's before one of the numerous peace attempts, the Israeli Prime Minister said he wished that Gaza would disappear into ocean. Or when you hear Israeli's say that Gaza should be conquered and 'cleansed'. And these voices are getting louder and louder. How does that fit into your moral compass?

There are no good guys or bad guys. Israel have a right to self defence but they also need to face the fact that they are an occupying force in areas whether they like it or not. Even the Israeli courts have said that Israel are an occupying force and have broken international law. That's reality. They have to accept that a lot of people will have a problem with that and the continuing expansion of settlements.

The other reality is that Hamas are a bunch of terrorist scum who do not give one damn about the people of Gaza. Just like The IRA, Al Qaeda and every other terrorist organisation that has a so called cause. They sacrifice their own people to further their own dilusional cause. I don't know anyone apart from deluded idiots who are pro Hamas. Usually the same idiots that wear IRA tshirts.

The argument that Hamas would be 1000% worse if they got a chance is also defunct. Why are you comparing the actions of one the few democratic States in the area with a terrorist organisation. Is that the standard you judge Israel on? It's a pretty low bar.

Meanwhile while people run around arguing about who is right and wrong, innocent civilians pay the price. Purple was right. There are no good and bad guys. Just a bunch of pathetic people playing games with other people's lives.

Sunny said:

The other reality is that Hamas are a bunch of terrorist scum who do not give one damn about the people of Gaza. Just like The IRA, Al Qaeda and every other terrorist organisation that has a so called cause. They sacrifice their own people to further their own dilusional cause. I don't know anyone apart from deluded idiots who are pro Hamas.

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++++1000
I do not deny people the right to take a moral stance against Israeli actions but only if they subscribe to the above sentiment. I sense from the placards at the public demos that few would indeed subscribe to the above truth. Anyway, I am impressed at your stated resolve not to engage in a Gaza/Israeli debate.

Has anyone attempted to give an explanation why ISRAEL was set up in the first place? The irony is that israel want a state all to themselves and that brings us back to the reason for that course of action. The outcome is israel have lost all credibilty/sympathy whatever they had going for them but I still maintain until usa say stop it will go on and on. Mind you I was not aware the UK sent so many weapons.

Of course in 30 or 50 years we will have an apology etc etc.

The truth of the matter is that humanity should be ashamed of itself and maybe some good will emerge.

I just wish that israeli spokepersons would not treat all of us like idiots. viz we need to block tunnels so we bomb all the buildings ... oh we never expected people to be there!!

They have sophisticated equipment to stop rockets but they cant detect a tunnel, give me a break.

And then the usa wonder why they are hated.

NOAH said:

Has anyone attempted to give an explanation why ISRAEL was set up in the first place? The irony is that israel want a state all to themselves and that brings us back to the reason for that course of action. The outcome is israel have lost all credibilty/sympathy whatever they had going for them but I still maintain until usa say stop it will go on and on. Mind you I was not aware the UK sent so many weapons.

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I am aware of why and how the Israeli state was set up. Are you? Are you aware of the population movements in the region from the start of the Zionist movement in the 1870’s? Specifically the movement of Arabs into the area that is now Israel during that time? I take it that you are also aware of the history of the region before the Ottoman Empire and the earlier Islamic conquest? I take it that you are aware of the role of Jordan and Syria in the creation of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank ghettoes, the 1948 war and the 1967 (6 day) war?
Israel is a Jewish homeland and yet it has over a million Palestinian citizens who have full and equal rights. I made that point earlier and you didn’t seem to understand but they are not the people in Gaza, they are within Israel.

NOAH said:

Of course in 30 or 50 years we will have an apology etc etc.

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I hope so but I can’t see Hamas ever apologising.

NOAH said:

The truth of the matter is that humanity should be ashamed of itself and maybe some good will emerge.

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I agree.

NOAH said:

I just wish that israeli spokepersons would not treat all of us like idiots. viz we need to block tunnels so we bomb all the buildings ... oh we never expected people to be there!!

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You do know that it’s one of the most densely populated areas in the world and tunnels will be under buildings so that movements of people and goods are harder to detect from the air, right?

NOAH said:

They have sophisticated equipment to stop rockets but they cant detect a tunnel, give me a break.

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You do know the difference between radar and things that fly in the air on the one hand and things that are under ground on the other, right?

NOAH said:

And then the usa wonder why they are hated.

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When Muslims were being ethnically cleansed ion Europe 20 years ago and we Europeans did nothing it was Americans who fought and died to protect them. Then again we Irish never do anything, other than send a preening bombastic shrill elderly hobbit to warble at the bemused and incredulous audience of the odd international gathering.

Could anyone recommend a good balanced book on the Israeli Palestinian conflict?

I've looked online, but most seem to be for one side or the other.

Has anyone read Mark Tessler's Book http://www.amazon.com/History-Israeli-Palestinian-Conflict-Indiana-Islamic/dp/025322070X ('A History of the Israeli Palestinian Conflict')?

Duke of Marmalade said:

++++1000
I do not deny people the right to take a moral stance against Israeli actions but only if they subscribe to the above sentiment. I sense from the placards at the public demos that few would indeed subscribe to the above truth. Anyway, I am impressed at your stated resolve not to engage in a Gaza/Israeli debate.

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I engage because I get annoyed when people instead of trying to understand the issues simply decide to take sides like it is a school playground. I get annoyed when an Irish Trade Union calls for a boycott of Israeli products. I get annoyed when Sinn Fein manipulate the Dail to stand for a minute in 'solidarity' with the people of Gaza. I get annoyed when I hear a terrorist organisation like Hamas talk about the killing of innocent people by Israel. I get annoyed when I see three Israeli boys murdered for no other reason than they were Isaeli. I get annoyed to see a Arab get kidnapped and burnt alive in response. I get annoyed seeing children playing on a beach getting blown up. I get annoyed with Hamas using UN schools to store weapons. I get annoyed when I hear about the fear that the people of Israel live under. I get annoyed that Israel can't see the futility of what they have acheived in the past few weeks. I get annoyed at the uselessness of the UN who must be pointless organisation in existence.

I get annoyed that after all this time, we still don't have a solution to the occupied territories and expanding settlements. I am annoyed that Israel won't accept that they are an occupying force in Gaza. I get annoyed that Eygpt have washed their hands of Gaza. I get annoyed that even if this ceasefire holds, over 70% of people in Gaza will be unemployed and that over 500,000 people are displaced with no homes. I get annoyed that the Palestinian population in Gaza have been used and abandoned in equal mesuase by their own political leaders.

I get annoyed at the growth of far right politics in Israel. I get anoyed when I hear sitting Israeli politicians claim that Gaza should be conqured, camps should be created where civillians can be 'concentrated' until they are deported and there is isn't national outrage. I get annoyed when the leader of one the largest political parties in Isreal says the Zionists should stay fighting because the Palestinians kill jews. I get annoyed that these extreme views are becoming increasingly mainstream and the more moderate voices in Israel (of which there are plenty) are getting drowned out. I get annoyed when I read about blue ID's that non-Jewish residents of East Jerusalem are required to carry.

I could go on and on but what's the point. Anyone who thinks Hamas is worthy of support is an idiot. They are usually the same people who turn up at Glasnevin cemetry protesting at a WW1 commeneration. Anyone who thinks that everyone or even the majority of people who dare to criticise Israel or question their policies is anti semetic and supports terrorism is equally idiotic. There are plenty of critics within Israel of current policy never mind the people from outside Israel. That's why Israel will survive and should always be protected and is what seperates it from the other despot States in the region.