NPPR disproportionate interest - paying principal only for now and taking a case?

=MAT=

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Hi there. Last month I found out about NPPR for first time. I'm looking at a 3,000 euro NPPR interest on 1,000 NPPR charges I owe on my small property in Dublin which I manage myself remotely. I live in Belfast but spend a lot of time abroad with work. I pay tax on the rare profit I make on this rental income (and LPT etc.) and am fully compliant till now. I never received any notification of any kind re: NPPR until yesterday as I was thinking of starting this thread. My letter said they found me through Revenue property records (only took them 5 years?).
I wish they told me in 2009 so I could have paid the 200 euro per year from 2009 to 2013 and be done with it and saved the stress this thing is.
My current plan was to write a bank draft to NPPR for the principal owed (1,000) so that is with them by end August (deadline for the period of so-called 'grace’) with a letter of appeal to my local Co. Council and fight this extortionate interest, having paid the principal? But now I am seriously considering legal avenue at the same time as paying principal along with letter of appeal.
Anyone want to join together to fight this? All advice welcome. Please refrain from telling me I am an idiot. I feel it! Thanks.
 
Folks

MAT has asked others who are interested to join him in taking a case.

Please do not discuss anything else in this thread so that it remains focused. Other good threads were ruined by off-topic discussions e.g.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=180288

MAT

You have three options

1) Appeal on the basis of Hardship
2) Lobby politicians to change the law
3) Challenge it legally on the grounds that it is extortionate. As I suggested in the other thread, you will need counsel's opinion. You might get a pro-bono SC's opinion on this from Ross Maguire of [broken link removed]
 
I don't think it correct to say 1000 plus 3000 in interest.

Section 7 of the legislation here: http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2011/a3611.pdf
sets out the math for the calculations of late payment fees and interest

For non payment of 200 in 2009 it became 260 (30% late payment fees) plus interest at 1% per month or c 12.68% per annum for 4 years becoming 1260.
So on for 2010 though 2013
The 1260 if not paid by end August 2014 has 120 added on and then multiplied by 1.5 to become 2,070

The rest can be seen under the FAQ's here https://www.nppr.ie/

If you are going to pick a fight the proper breakdown of the charges is important
 
Is there not another case against the NPPR that it was never notified in person to those liable for it? Many people living abroad seem to have been caught out by it, and in fairness, how were they supposed to know? (No MAT, you're not an idiot). I know this has been mentioned before, but worth asking again.
 
Is there not another case against the NPPR that it was never notified in person to those liable for it? Many people living abroad seem to have been caught out by it, and in fairness, how were they supposed to know? (No MAT, you're not an idiot). I know this has been mentioned before, but worth asking again.

I will answer this to prevent the case going off topic.

As has been pointed out on the other thread, if you own a property, you should make yourself fully familiar with the tax regime and laws in that country. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

MAT - you could add this to your case, but it's unlikely to succeed.
 
Hi Ircoha
For non payment of 200 in 2009 it became 260 (30% late payment fees) plus interest at 1% per month or c 12.68% per annum for 4 years becoming 1260.

€260 @ 12.68% for 4 years, would be €391.87. The €200 fee not paid in 2009, has additional fees of €20 per month or €240 per year applied. That is well over 100% per year in the initial years.

What happens if I don't pay?

They will increase further from 1 September

Table of Charges and Late Payment Fee

The €1,260 due now, rises to €2,070 from 1 September. In other words, after the fine of €60, interest is added at 50% compound each year.
 
So folks - when I said 1,000 principal for 2009-2013 charges (200 per year) + 3,000 of late payment fees on that sum - the specifics are as follows:

The Co. Council letter dates 15th August states: the total amount of NPPR charge for me and anyone like me who has paid nil till now is:
'4,220 in respect of each property.'
to be paid by 31 August.
If unpaid - as mentioned on another thread - it becomes 7,230 owing on 1 Sept 2014. Which is why I stated my firm intention to pay principal by bank draft before end this month - and enclose a letter of appeal.

so anyway - that was just to clarify detailed numbers involved.

Back to topic.

any other voices out there for taking a case as a group?

cheers.
MAT
 
Billy Timmins of the Reform Alliance was on Morning Ireland calling for the date for the "amnesty" to be extended from 31 August to 31 October.

He wasn't very convincing and the interviewer made him look like like an idiot.

It's a misguided objective. The objective should be to make the penalties proportionate.

I met a former barrister at the weekend, who reckoned that a legal challenge had a good chance of being successful on the grounds that it was grossly disproportionate.
 
You could argue that but what are you waiting for? you now know that the thing is increasing exponentially so why not pay now before it's double trouble?

The disproportionate argument isn't going to convince a judge. Isn't €90 fine for clamping disproportionate for the 20 cent you didn't put in for those last 20 mins. I haven't heard anyone arguing disproportionality on that one!
 
Billy Timmins of the Reform Alliance was on Morning Ireland calling for the date for the "amnesty" to be extended from 31 August to 31 October.


The deadline does need to be extended to allow time to agree phased payment arrangements.

The local authorities aren't able to cope with the number of enquries they are receiving this week.
 
I agree. As the OP, my objective continues to be - to see if there are any other folks out there who would come together to take a legal challenge - about the disproportionate penalties.
(Principal amount has been paid by me for 31 August deadline along with my letter of appeal)
 
If you don't mind - I am not sure there is much point getting into that here. I have taken advice about the content of that communication to the Council and I am content with that.
For this thread - my only question for now is if there are people out there - willing to take a case... based purely on the extortionate penalties. Sorry I don't want to get off-point.
 
I'm obviously missing something here but if you have paid the amounts owing - in Mat's case the €1000- by then end of August, then surely the penalities don't apply? I thought that was the idea of putting the August dealine in place. I know a relative of mine owed about €400 in missed payments but cleared that last month and was told by the Co Council that was the end of it - and not to worry about any interest/penalty amounts. Is that incorrect or not?
 
I'm obviously missing something here but if you have paid the amounts owing - in Mat's case the €1000- by then end of August, then surely the penalities don't apply?

If you didn't pay previously, then there are penalties already applying (on top of the annual €200 charges). There are going to be further penalties if outstanding sums aren't paid by the end of the month.
 
The penalties apply to me and anyone who did not pay the 200 euro each year over the five years (on time per annum in 2009 to 2013). With every month that passed since 2009 - the penalties accumulate until 31 August 2014. The period of grace is a period that ends 31 August (this weekend). After this time my principal amount owing (1000 euro had I paid it on time) becomes 7,230. If I pay this week - I would pay 4,220 in order for the Council to deem me as paid up. Hope that clarifies...
 
Hi MAT

I too hope you get an appeal going. I think you have a good chance of winning it.

I am amazed that you have not got more response and support.

From a practical point of view, you should try to pay it by tomorrow's deadline and then appeal it afterwards.

Brendan
 
Finally some common sense…


Check out Paul McSweeney from the Local Government Management Agency speaking on Highland Radio today
 
Let the Joe Duffy public know you are planning an appeal, lots of people on there all week who would be interested I imagine.

Some very unusual stories like the woman who swapped house with her parents as father was ill and couldn't manage stairs and she had a ground floor bedroom/bathroom. As the houses are not within 2 km of each other they are now both caught for the tax and penalties, that definitely is an unfair one.
 
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