Dublin City Council makes site available to citizen developers

Brendan Burgess

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If you can find three or four other families to build a small apartment block together, Dublin City Council will sell you a site on Fishamble Street for €150k

You have to build apartments suitable for family living and you must keep them for 10 years.
 
The Irish Times article estimated about 1.2 million in total to develop it, which is just a bit more than the headline grabbing 150,000. Still, 300,000 each is probably a fairly okay price for 100 sqm in the city centre. Lots of potential for good things to happen with this but I still don't know if Fishamble Street is somewhere I'd want to bring kids up, even if I had an apartment that was actually suited to family living. Quiet enough street itself but at either end two roads with very heavy traffic. I'll be very interested to see what happens with this.

P.S. Also hope they enjoy Handel :) (couldn't resist posting that link, partly 'cos I'm in it - and if we look cold, we were. Singing in the rain isn't quite as much fun as Gene Kelly would have you believe :p )
 
http://dublincity.ie/sites/default/...Documents/Dublin House- Memo on Financing.pdf

Bizarre. If someone wanted to take this risk and pay exhorbitant development interest rates, why not buy a site where they can build without restrictions on subsequent sale? Any sort of archaeological find could significantly extend the term of the development bridging loan.

Prediction: if this goes ahead, it will be funded by cash, not lending, possibly by an extended family already involved in development or construction. The 10 year restriction can be waived by the elected council members, so someone experienced in 'lobbying' local politicians might do well here.
 
The interest rate charged would need to reflect the riskiness of the project and the strength of the guarantees. Construction loans (bridging) would be higher than typical mortgages, 9% compared to 4%. In addition a lender will only fund if it is believed that the full amount of the loan advanced at any stage in the process can be repaid if the project has to be abandoned. This means that the value of the project at completion and the current state of construction would influence the amount of loan that would be advanced as well as the strength of the promoter. The normal percentage of the development finance sanctioned would be circa 60% as set out above.

Fair play to Dublin City Council for trying this. They want to get families living in the city. This seems like a complex and expensive project to start with.

The alternative would be to sell the site to a developer on condition that they build 4 family style apartments.
 
The alternative would be to sell the site to a developer on condition that they build 4 family style apartments.

But there's no guarantee that families would actually buy them then, I suppose. My guess is that if someone is found to do this, it's likely to be people who have lived abroad, or perhaps have close friends or family who have done so, and are aware of some of the things that make apartment living possible for families, e.g. decent storage/cellars and that kind of thing).
 
Its hard enough to get one family to confirm their requirements on a building development so I can't imagine the headaches for a design team who have to deal with at least 4 different families and 4 different sets of requirements.
 
150K for a site suitable for 4 family apartments sounds very reasonable. That's less than 40K for each family. Someone mentioned 300K per apartment for construction, which seems high to me considering you are building one building with 4 units.

So the way to look at this is how much would a family apartment be worth on completion. Basically would it be worth at least 350K.

A decent apartment in Dublin commands how much in rent? I assume we are talking at least a 3 bed apartment size?

Just had a look at the site, not too narrow and they are allowed go up 6 stories. So that gives a lot of options. Silly not to allow them to go down and create underground parking when it's such an ordeal to park in Dublin. Never understand this aversion to allowing the creation of parking spaces. I wonder would they be allowed to create a 7th level underground. Good for storage rooms and utilities maybe.
 
150K for a site suitable for 4 family apartments sounds very reasonable. That's less than 40K for each family. Someone mentioned 300K per apartment for construction, which seems high to me considering you are building one building with 4 units.

So the way to look at this is how much would a family apartment be worth on completion. Basically would it be worth at least 350K.

A decent apartment in Dublin commands how much in rent? I assume we are talking at least a 3 bed apartment size?

Just had a look at the site, not too narrow and they are allowed go up 6 stories. So that gives a lot of options. Silly not to allow them to go down and create underground parking when it's such an ordeal to park in Dublin. Never understand this aversion to allowing the creation of parking spaces. I wonder would they be allowed to create a 7th level underground. Good for storage rooms and utilities maybe.

basement construction would send the cost through the roof on a development of 4 units, especially with having to underpin the properties on either side.
 
basement construction would send the cost through the roof on a development of 4 units, especially with having to underpin the properties on either side.

Ok, so that's not a runner. How much would that cost do you estimate?

And how much is a parking spot worth in that area?

What do you think of thte 1.2 million build costs, is that about right for that plot, in a built up area and bearing in mind it is Dublin where build costs are highest.
 
So a citizen developer is

i assume someone who will not sell on for commercial gain.

Strange use of the word citizen. Seems to me that someone is trying to use a value laden description here. Citizen developer good, non-citizen developer (what is the opposite of citizen) bad.
 
Strange use of the word citizen. Seems to me that someone is trying to use a value laden description here. Citizen developer good, non-citizen developer (what is the opposite of citizen) bad.

Kind of a simplistic way of looking at it. Although, if you asked most people in Ireland if they thought commercial developers were good or bad, how many do you think would answer "good" :D

At any rate, I think the point is that they want people to develop the site who will actually live there. Specifically, they want families (I'm presuming that means families with children although I can't remember if that was mentioned explicitly) who will live there. Commercial vs. private develope doesn't work, as a private developer could easily be someone who wants to build a one-off project and then sell it for profit. Citizen might not quite be accurate but it's different enough for a catchy headline that might get people to read further to see what it's all about. What would your preferred term be? Owner-occupier developer covers it but it's not as catchy as citizen developer, is it? I think it encapsulates nicely the fact that they're trying to do something different.
 
Ok, so that's not a runner. How much would that cost do you estimate?

And how much is a parking spot worth in that area?

What do you think of thte 1.2 million build costs, is that about right for that plot, in a built up area and bearing in mind it is Dublin where build costs are highest.

it depends on so many variables as with 4 families you are going to have 4 completely different finished products. Assuming they can all agree to a standard layout would help the costs but you then have the stairwell, fire rated, possibly a lift, roofgarden? etc etc. Plucking a figure from the sky like the council have of 1.2million is very misleading when there is no spec. There is not even a size guide available for the site. Ground conditions would also be an issue in that part of dublin.
 
What is a citizen developer.

Were Sean Dunne et al not citizens?

they have actually stated that you will have to live in it for 10 years so i suppose there in lies the answer of what they class as a citizen developer. Developing ones own private residence.
 
it depends on so many variables as with 4 families you are going to have 4 completely different finished products. ... There is not even a size guide available for the site. Ground conditions would also be an issue in that part of dublin.

Full details are at http://dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-housing-city-architects-division/dublin-house

You only need a minimum of two households and there is no requirement to have children. Two bachelor farmers looking to downsize could easily qualify. Or a rich developer looking to setup their children in town.
 
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