Stop for unmarked garda car?

Does anyone know if you have to stop for a garda driving an unmarked car - no blue lights, no uniform?
I was cycling last week and had an 'incident' with a car that was driving aggressively in the bus lane - the driver flashed his wallet/badge at me, and I stopped - but I did wonder should I have/was I entitled to cycle on.
I had no way of knowing at that point if he was a genuine garda, or even if that's what he was actually indicating.

AFAIK you have to stop for a Garda no matter what they're driving, as long as they can show they are a garda !

Probably not , you can,t be clairvoyant!

1. Cars kill cyclists ,not the other way round.Safer for you to back off.
2. If Garda was driving aggressively , it s highly probable he was on an urgent journey.

Gerry Canning said:

it s highly probable he was on an urgent journey.

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If he was on an urgent journey, should he not be using the appropiate undercover car with flashing blue lights?

Also does anyone know if the Garda badge includes photo id? ie. how does one know that the badge is legit?

undercover and flashing blue lights don,t mix !
Anyway point 1 stands.

900TS said:

Does anyone know if you have to stop for a garda driving an unmarked car - no blue lights, no uniform?

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Are you talking about an unmarked squad car with blue lights in the front grill, at the sides and in the rear window type of unmarked squad car or just a garda in their own car.

You should certainly stop for an unmarked car with blue lights. If it was a garda in his private car unless you could clearly see it was a garda then I would not be stopping.

Joe_90 said:

Are you talking about an unmarked squad car with blue lights in the front grill, at the sides and in the rear window type of unmarked squad car or just a garda in their own car.

You should certainly stop for an unmarked car with blue lights. If it was a garda in his private car unless you could clearly see it was a garda then I would not be stopping.

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I am talking about what I assume was a garda in his own car - no blue lights were used.
The problem was I could not clearly see that it was a garda - so of course I was dubious when he said he was. The ID he presented was a split second flash of a card in a wallet - but when I asked for a closer look and asked badge number etc. I was treated aggressively.

Essentially it was all a bit heated, and anyone who has ever questioned a garda knows that you are in an uneven relationship in terms of power at that moment. Any question I posed or defence I put up was met with 'tell it to the judge' type comment.

So my basic question - was I entitled (in law) to keep going, and not stop. Remember he was in a regular car, I was on a bike. My feeling afterwards was that I should not have stopped. As it happens he was a garda, but by the time we had established that he was completely annoyed with me (and I with him), and treated me accordingly initially.
If he had not been a garda, in hindsight it was even more stupid to stop.

This post might make more sense if you could explain why this Garda stopped you in the first place.

If he was urgently trying to get somewhere else, then why would he waste his time stopping you?

Guns N Roses said:

This post might make more sense if you could explain why this Garda stopped you in the first place.

If he was urgently trying to get somewhere else, then why would he waste his time stopping you?

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Fair point, but like most things there are 2 sides to the story. Brief(ish) synopsis of event:

I was cycling in a bus lane, safely - lights, high viz etc. His car zipped past me dangerously close, especially in last weeks windy weather (nowhere near the required distance for overtaking a cyclist).

At next lights he was first car at lights, still in bus lane. I took (and retained) road position in front of him on bike space. I decided to take 'ownership' of the space, as advised to cyclists - so I did not cower in at road edge, but stayed well out - in effect though this meant he could no longer 'squeeze' past me as he had done earlier.

Or so I thought. He proceeded to hoot, and gesticulate at me , and I in turn gesticulated that this was a bus lane etc... (I think he flashed a wallet at this point), he then very aggressively, in slight traffic gap in regular lane, overtook me again, and gesticulated to pull over.

By now I suspect he is a garda, but I'm not sure whether to stop or not (by law must I?) I am feeling intimidated - if he is a garda, is not stopping going to mean further chase and make it worse; if he is not a garda - is he some very annoyed reckless driver going to batter me?

I did stop (wrongly I feel now).

My question is the same - am I obliged in law to stop for a person in an unmarked car/no uniform - even if they are garda?

900TS said:

My question is the same - am I obliged in law to stop for a person in an unmarked car/no uniform - even if they are garda?

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IMO...........Absolutly Not !!

And of course your question is the same, because the reason why he stopped you is not pertinent, no onus on you to stop for an non uniformed Garda in an private/unmarked car.

If an action of "failure to stop" or similar was pursued by the Garda, he would have to prove that he identified himself to you, as a Garda, and you then refused to stop, practically impossible to do without you stopping in the first place. Yelling out the window "Garda requesting you to stop" , or suchlike, does not meet that required level of identification.

On what basis did he require you to stop?

What was the nature of the conversation?

I often take ownership of the lane in front of private cars which should not be there.

Have you been charged with something?

You can report him to the station or you can report him to the Garda Ombudsman.

But you are on dodgy grounds if you were doing something illegal,although it sounds as if you were not.

Brendan

Brendan Burgess said:

On what basis did he require you to stop?

What was the nature of the conversation?

I often take ownership of the lane in front of private cars which should not be there.

Have you been charged with something?

You can report him to the station or you can report him to the Garda Ombudsman.

But you are on dodgy grounds if you were doing something illegal,although it sounds as if you were not.

Brendan

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Brendan, none of the above (except, maybe broadly, the first point) are questioned or even mentioned by the OP.

As far as I can see his/her ONLY question is :

Originally Posted by 900TS http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1374175#post1374175

My question is the same - am I obliged in law to stop for a person in an unmarked car/no uniform - even if they are garda?

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900TS said:

At next lights he was first car at lights, still in bus lane....

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If he was stopped at the lights he was unlikely to have been on an urgent call to somewhere, more like on his way home and therefore illegally driving in the bus lane so I think you would have been justified in not stopping.

As far as I know, marked Garda cars are 'technically' only allowed use bus lanes if they are on a call. If they are simply on patrol or returning to their station, they are supposed to use regular lanes along with the rest of the traffic. I'm open to correction on this however. Of course they are also only supposed to use their blue lights and sirens when on a call too but I have lost track of the number of times I've seen Garda cars (both marked and unmarked) making use of lights/sirens to get through busy traffic only to turn into the next Garda station. Couple of stations in south inner city Dublin spring to mind.

I'm sure these are not any of Martin Calinan's Gardai either

900Ts.

on reading more you just met an ignoramus with a bad attitude.
from the threads the Guards ,in particular Mr Callinan , are pushing it.

+1.

I've two questions, can cyclists in Dublin cycle in the bus lanes, can private cars, no I assume to that last one. A gardai in his private car is the same as everybody else. Unless he's in an unmarked gardai vehicle. I assume then the gardai can use the bus lanes, or do they have to have flashing lights etc.

Hope the OP took the licence plate number.

Bronte said:

I've two questions, can cyclists in Dublin cycle in the bus lanes, can private cars, no I assume to that last one. A gardai in his private car is the same as everybody else. Unless he's in an unmarked gardai vehicle. I assume then the gardai can use the bus lanes, or do they have to have flashing lights etc.

Hope the OP took the licence plate number.

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If a decent and brave Garda "whistleblower" is treated this way (highlighting penalty points and much,much worse issue)
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/02/18/garda-confidential-2/

I do not belive the OP would have a leg (cycling or otherwise!) to stand on.

I agree with you Werner as I too have little faith in the gardai, but you never know. Maybe if you report one of them they won't come after your family with parking tickets and such like. But if people don't stand up to bullying then where will we all be.

Thanks for all the feedback - though I think I need to follow up with the garda or citizens information on the specifics of whether by law I had to stop.

Just to clarify a few items, and answer a few questions:

I was not actually charged with an offence - I was eventually given a caution.
The nature of the conversation was heated from the off, and revolved around me trying to establish his bonafides, and explain my actions. He went into 'you are not cooperating' mode which felt threatening and intimidating from my perspective.

Because I asked for identification initially, he never actually said what I was being stopped for - cycling dangerously was implied, but once I challended him he called for a car; I called 999 to get confirmation that he was a guard.

As I was refusing to provide my details until I ascertained he was a guard, he took that as not co-operating, so went into 'tell it to the court', 'you can put that in your statement at the station' type situation.

Once I established he was a guard, I switched to 'cooperation' mode, for purely practical reasons (remember I was on my way to work, did not want hassle of going to station, court eventually probably).

But I guess apart from my main question, I believe the nature of the typical exchange is not evenly balanced - if you do not adopt a servile attitude with a guard, they can use any other type of response as a challenge to their authority and act accordingly. They either make smart remarks, or ask questions they have no right to etc.

I know most guards are decent, hardworking individuals, doing a difficult job, but I also feel those same people are let down by the way they engage with the public; it seems to be a cultural thing.

I will follow up on the correctness of his actions in stopping me. I do have his name and car reg.

He said at the end he only went into the bus lane as I was cycling dangerously, which was completely untrue - if that was the case he would have tried to stop me at that point, not 500 meters down the road after the next lights, when I 'challenged' him by taking ownership of the road. So I assume he should not have been there. But these details are open to interpretation - and so I'm not interested in going down that route.

His power to actually stop me should be clear cut though.

The entire episode left me feeling powerless (at that moment) and bullied.

Thanks again all.

What do you mean by he called for a car? I wonder how one can be cycling dangerously in the bus lane if there is no traffic there.