Personal experience of buying in Bulgaria

S

Shadow74

Guest
This may be of interest to anyone thinking of buying in Bulgaria.

Myself and a colleague have set up a new website detailing our own experiences of buying in a number of locations in Bulgaria. We feel we have accumulated quite a bit of knowledge over the last 2 years in this area.

This is not a commercial website and does not sell property, it is purely an aid to prespective buyers based on our own experiences and will be constantly updated.

Please take a look:
[broken link removed]
 
I saw this website a few weeks ago when someone sent me the link.

It's not true to say that the website does not sell property; it has links to a number of estate agents selling in Bulgaria. If they are not directly involved in this site, they are advertising on it -- probably on "pay per click" basis -- so click away guys and help the site owners earn a few quid!

If the two website owners are "for real", the at least they will profit from their Bulgarian experience by getting some of their money back from web advertising. My gut instinct however is that this is an elaborate marketing setup, basically a clever bit of PR; it glosses over the issue of selling on, and effectively accentuates the positives while ignoring the negatives.

Would be interested to see how other posters see it.

One other interesting feature-- three newspapers are quoted as giving positive reports on the featured properties, and two of them are Irish, neither of which are noted for their objectivity in property journalism. It seems that they could only find one UK newspaper that could be quoted to suit their piece.
 
Hi Auto320,

No that isn't the case.
First of all the site has only been up a couple of weeks, we developed it ourselves as we are actually in IT, and not involved in selling property. We genuinely are just 2 investors who have teamed up together to invest and try to make money from investing in overseas property to enable us to get out of the IT industry. We felt that that the information we have gathered would be useful to other people. Everything we state about our experiences is true. We are lot linked to any estate agent, sure we have a couple of links to estate agents we have bought through on our home page, but one of these was to secure a link on their site to give us more search engine viability. It it up to the individual if they wish to follow any of the those links. We are not recommending any particular agent. You must do your own research and it's a slow process.


As far as the links on our Links page, this is just a swapping of links. This is what every website owner would do. It helps raise your chance of a higher ranking on the search engines. You need incoming links and one way to get this is to agree to swap links.

There is also no Payperclick on the site. Sure if we can make a bit of money from the site we will but it will not be from selling property either directly or indirectly, the primary aim of the site is to give information.

Once again let me reiterate, there is no clever marketing ploy here.
In fact your comment could be taken as a bit of a compliment. Thank you.

Hope that clears things up.

Regards

Shadow74
 
Hi Auto320,

Forgot to mention, as far as glossing over the issues of selliing on, we genuinely have no idea what will happen when we try to sell. We hope we will be able to but only time will tell. We have no experience of this so there is very little we can say.

I'd also like to add, that we are aware that some of the pages are a little weak in content, this we intend to remedy.

Let me emphasise again though, they aim of the site is to give information from our experience and to include anything we discover as time goes on.

We could relate all sorts of problems we have had, but they are specific to the properties we have bought and not to buying in Bulgaria in general.

Regards

Shadow74
 
Ok, I take your word for it.

You must have good website structure of this site is found easily -- it was pased to me for comment a week or so back by someone who had picked up on it; points to someone in the IT business certainly.

I wish you luck with the venture to get out of your jobs and into property; unfortunately you have been badly advised to date. If you want to lose the day job, Bulgaria was probably not your best choice. Oversupply of overpriced product doesn't bode well for gains down the road, and any serious investor that I know has avoided this market like the proverbial plague.

If you want to get into property as a business, never go to another property exhibition except to see what is happening; never ever buy anything through this route. Keep away from the big mass-marketing operations that sell the kind of stuff you have bought to date. These companies need to market large developments so that staff with little or no real expertise can be taught to sell them; conversely these companies can not afford to sell the kinds of properties that might offer decent gains. In addition, the huge commissions driving markets like Bulgaria, as well as the large slice added on top of the price to cover the "guaranteed rental", just add another large percentage to an already inflated base price. Your chances of getting out with a profit in a real market are almost nil.

Best advice I can give you is to try to offload what you have bought; just trying to get shut of one of them as an exercise, even if you are not actually going to sell, will teach you a few realities about this market. Make use of the website by selling adverts on it, and use your expertise to push it way up the rankings so that the agencies will pay well well for adverts on the site. Get into real markets where ordinary people buy and sell property at real local prices, and try to buy good product that will sell easily, and buy it at the best price you can get it at.

If you persist with this Bulgarian market, don't give up the day jobs just yet!
 
Hi Auto320,

Thanks for that.

To be honest this is the first website we have built as we are not on this side of IT. We work on large mainframes and legacy systems (COBOL/CICS/DB2). So it's all a bit of a learning curve.

As far as Bulgaria is concerned, it is a 3 to 5 year investment plan during which time we will be selling and aim to be out of the market in 5 years, hopefully at a reasonable profit. Fortunately, not all our eggs are in this basket. With hindsight, we are probably overweight in Bulgaria. We hope we have chosen good complexes though, but we shall see.

Regards

Shadow74
 
I would like to back Shadow up on this topic. This is not some elaborate ploy to sell property. It is a website on his personal experience. He does not get paid for links on it. I know as I swapped links with him.

Rachel
 
In fairness though Rachel, yours is not an entirely dispassionate voice in this area -- you are involved in property sales in Bulgaria. It is therefore in your general interest to talk up this market.

Shadow was doing a good job of defending himself before you added your tuppence worth!
 
Hi all,

Just to reiterate, everything I have said in earlier posts in response to auto320 is true and correct. There is nothing to defend. We do not sell property , nor recommend any particular agent. You must do your own due diligence.

With regard to thetravelbug.org, Rachel asked if I would exchange links, this was my first ever contact, I agreed. I do not receive any commission or anything from her if someone happens to click on her link and is transferred to her website. All the links on our Other Useful Websites page are the same. They are links we have exchanged with or we think might be useful.

The links on our home page are as follows:

Barrasford and Bird - through whom we purchased our first 2 apartments in Sofia. They placed a link on their site to us. That is all.

Pamporva Ski apartments - are our 2 apartments in Pamporova, so that is us.

Bulgarian Dreams - through whom we purchased our apartments in Pamprova.
We haven't even got a link on their site to us. Again no renumeration.

Englaria - they are handling the renting of our Sofia Apartments. They wiil
shortly be linking to us. Again no renumeration.

Bluehost - our web hosting company - yes we would receive something if someone ends up buying hosting after link to them from us. A pretty slim chance really.

Moneycorp - a company we have exchanged currency through, again we would get a very small commission if someone actuall linked to them and then did and exchange. An even slimmer chance!

At the present time, we would receive a small commission from Underwoods if anyone purchased buildings/contents insurance. But this is obvious from the Insuring your Property page itself.
We have insured both the Sofia apartments and Pamporova apartments through them. The reasons are explained on the page.

In fact if someone can tell us how to make money from our website, please do, as we are new to this.

Our first task would be to just cover our hosting fees.

Regards

Shadow74
 
Are you always this pathetic Auto? All I said was that the website is about Shadow's personal experience and that he does not get paid for links as you were making a big deal of this. You seem to have a really big chip on your shoulder. Any post people make you have to blast, particularly with regard to Bulgaria and property. Tell me do you actually know anything about the country or the property market here?
 
Are you always this pathetic Auto? All I said was that the website is about Shadow's personal experience and that he does not get paid for links as you were making a big deal of this. You seem to have a really big chip on your shoulder. Any post people make you have to blast, particularly with regard to Bulgaria and property. Tell me do you actually know anything about the country or the property market here?
I am just pointing out a simple fact that is obvious to everybody; you are involved in selling Bulgarian property, therefore your contribution non this topic cannot be seen as objective. Simple as that.

I know an awful lot about Bulgaria, and the property market there. I made it my business to examine the prospects in all the post-communist countries after 1990, and that included an analysis of Bulgaria's propects. I was there in 1999 when the huge pyramid scheme robbed most of the country of their savings and caused the collapse of the central bank and the Lev. The crisis was so severe that it cause a famine in parts of the country; farmers used their seed money to get into the pyramid scheme and lost the lot. Strangely, much of the money made in this scheme by the few gangsters who controlled it made its way into property development, where it joined up with drug profits and similar funds from elsewhere in Europe.

When the new wave of scamming emerged, i.e. the sale of grossly overpriced property to gullible foreign investors, I looked at the market again to see if there was any element of sense in it; I found none. Initially the developers simply sold at a markup of 50 to 60 percent on the local price. When they realised that they could get even more from foreigners with no idea of the real value, they kept pushing prices up. In order to tempt the gullible further, they created the "guaranteed rental" scam, adding a couple of years rent to the already over-inflated prices, and drip-feeding this money back (if they are lucky) to the people who actually own the money, minus handling charges, and of course liable for tax.

You also need to remember the kind of people who are involved in the development business along the ocast in particular. High-pressure sales companies like McAnthonys, often slated on these pages because of their approach, are the best of these, not the worst. Remember the number of local developers shot dead as they battled for control of this foreigner-fleecing business? Is this a sane market, or one for a beginner from Ireland or the UK to invest their savings or mortgage top-up?

The bubble has yet to burst, but it is certain as the sun rising tomorrow. Over-supply, thousands of properties bought on borrowed money in the expectation of rent returns that are not going to materialise, and a huge supply/demand imbalance that is unique in Europe. All this makes for a crash of epic proportions; nothing like this has been seen in any European market. There is no underlying saving grace that can take the sting out of this situation; there is no market for retirees as happened around Alicante in Spain when properties were over-hyped there. There is no year-round tourism, just short seasonal business aimed at the bottom of the market. There is no large resident population with the ability to buy or rent these properties. Even if there were, the prices being achieved for sale to foreigners are so far above the local market values that ther is no possibility of getting money back. There is simply no merit in the majority of the property being mass marketed to overseas buyers in Bulgaria.

These are the facts. There are areas of opportunity in Bulgaria certainly, but the risk is too high for most savvy investors. The top-heaviness of the scam properties in the resorts is a factor likely to pull down the entire market, the good with the bad, so anyone with any sense will stay away.

Am I pathetic because I don't walk of the cliff with the rest of the lemmings? Probably, but only in the eyes of other lemmings.
 
Are you always this pathetic Auto? All I said was that the website is about Shadow's personal experience and that he does not get paid for links as you were making a big deal of this. You seem to have a really big chip on your shoulder. Any post people make you have to blast, particularly with regard to Bulgaria and property. Tell me do you actually know anything about the country or the property market here?
 
top-heaviness

Good post. Never really was interested in the Bulgaria market (think all the advertising put me off) but that was an informative summary from one point of view anyhow.

(BTW. Totally off mark but i have been using that phase above lately. I cannot fathom where i got it from but its deadly.)
 
Are you always this pathetic Auto? All I said was that the website is about Shadow's personal experience and that he does not get paid for links as you were making a big deal of this. You seem to have a really big chip on your shoulder. Any post people make you have to blast, particularly with regard to Bulgaria and property. Tell me do you actually know anything about the country or the property market here?

It's thanks to Auto and posters like him that make inexperienced
buyers like me think twice before going ahead with remorgaging,
and save ourselves a lot of grief and possibly being ripped off.
 
By all means dispute/rebut others' arguments but keep personalised comments/insults out of it.


Thanks for the intervention Clubman, but I'm not in the least offended!

When I see an outburst like that, I know that I hit a nerve. Posters trying to defend the indefensible often have to try hitting below the belt, but I have heard it all before!
 
Are you always this pathetic Auto? All I said was that the website is about Shadow's personal experience and that he does not get paid for links as you were making a big deal of this. You seem to have a really big chip on your shoulder. Any post people make you have to blast, particularly with regard to Bulgaria and property. Tell me do you actually know anything about the country or the property market here?

I personally find Auto to be the most informed poster on here and I'm sure plenty of people would agree with that, he certainly opened my eyes to a few things in how I should approach the purchase of overseas property and the potential pitfalls not just in relation to Bulgaria I might add. In 20 years time I may just raise a glass to askaboutmoney and the various informed posters on here who stopped a novice like me getting his fingers burned.

At the end of the day you do have a vested interested in promoting Bulgaria as you sell property there, if you don't like a healthy debate on the merits of the place then don't post but if you choose to be a regular poster (I hope you do) cut out the personal jibes because someone doesn't agree with you. To be fair to you travelbug the link to your website is in your profile and you haven't tried to hide the fact your involved in property unlike some posters that have frequented this site.

In Auto's defence (although he is well able to defend himself) he has consistently slammed the Bulgarian sun/ski resorts (the post above eloquently outlines why) but he has also said there is potential to make money in commercial property in Sofia if your very careful and do the research so it's unfair to suggest he has written off Bulgaria as a whole.
 
To be fair to you travelbug the link to your website is in your profile and you haven't tried to hide the fact your involved in property unlike some posters that have frequented this site.

And your a girl ! :)
[broken link removed]
 
Not sure what being a girl has to do with it but....

Also, I openly admit I am involved in property in Bulgaria, although not in the over developed areas such as apartments in Sunny Beach or in Bansko. I have been there, nearly got badly burned and would not advice anyone to do the same.

In fact I totally agree with much of what Auto says. There has been massive over development along the coast and in the ski resorts, Bansko particularly. The areas are ruined and awful concrete building sites. There will be massive problems in the future.

I certainly do not advice anyone to buy a property in the tourist areas and over hyped regions through a mortgage and requiring rental to cover payments, as this will just not happen.

However, that said Auto does seem to tarnish all us agents with the same brush. And talk of Bulgaria as all the same (over hyped, over priced and so on) and this is simply not true. I work mainly in rural property and there are lovely houses to be bought for less than 10,000 Euros. Sure these need renovating but to give you an example, I bought a small villa for around 14,000 Euros and have now spent around 10,000 Euros on it renovating it into two apartments. Plus abit more on kitchens, furniture, sorting out the garden etc. However, it is easily worth at least 40,000 Euros.

I have had a new house built (3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, central heating, solar panels, huge terrace, wooden floors, 3 fireplaces....) for around 70,000 Euros. The plot cost me 6,500 Euros.

The market in the areas more inland is not just fuelled by foriegn buyers. The Bulgarians are buying as much property around me for holiday homes and investment as the British.

I would urge anyone not to be put off Bulgaria by the opinions of a few. Yes avoid the large hard push agencies like MacAnthony, Bulgarian Dreams and so on and the over hyped regions around Sunny Beach and Bansko but move inland and you will find a beautiful country, with fantastic people and stil very cheap property that is rising steadily, not at stupid over inflated paper prices based on new development prices.

Rachel
 
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