Speeding Fine arrived by registered post from Swiss police

Jim2007 said:

I was talking about the official languages selected by the EU states.

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Sorry, a bit of confusion here. When Cervelo said

Cervelo said:

Just wondering if I got a speeding ticket in France does this rule mean I will get a ticket in English and Irish or is the Irish part something I would have to request ??

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I thought we were discussing the EU Cross Border Enforcement Directive http://etsc.eu/faq-eu-cross-border-enforcement-directive, which allows Member States where a specified traffic offence was committed to pursue and fine the drivers of cars registered in other EU Member States when they commit such traffic offences.

While the fine appears high to people not earning in Switzerland, the thing to remember is that everything is super expensive in Switzerland, so the salaries and fines are relative.

Best if this fine is paid.

Well, as the op hasn't being back to respond, I can only assume by the posts here they have sent a squad over here to bundle him back to face the charge.

If it were me, with that overpriced fine, I would be prepared to wait and see what develops,
Personally, Iv been there, and don't have plans to go back.

It's also all about hedging your bets, there is a 50% chance they will chase you for the funds,
How much do you like skiing there!

hello all,

I have been offline as my son was ill (the skiing one), he is fine now and out of Temple Street
(a bit more important than a traffic offense all you righteous people out there).

many thanks for all the contributions and expertise (most of them aimed negatively at me but some
agreeing with me and noticing its the *size* of the fine I have a problem with)

To clarify I passwd through 38 tunnels on the way to the resort, my son counted them (yes we have 1 in Dublin) and
I went 23kmph over the 80kmph in one of them. Not multiple from what I can gather .

So here's the update:
I received a "Final Reminder" by registered post again (after getting google translate to help me). It had an
Appeal date that because it wasnt in English it took me a whilre to realise. So I sent a registered letter
on April 18th to the Canton contact number and I appealed the *size* of the fine, not the principle of the
fine itself. I asked them i) assess my means and income in Ireland ii) detail to me
any bilateral traffic agreement between Switzerland and Ireland (there isn't one).
I told them to stop sending me registered letters.

They have not replied and this is a month later.

I'm hoping by their laws they MUST reply to my Appeal/Objection letter to give me a chance
to again I'm hoping they just drop it. In fact when I emailed them on 16th April saying
I don't understand your document send it to me in English, they were actually helpful
and said (I think this was a hint that it works) "did you see the appeal/objection date".
In other words, appeal to us and it might work.

Thank you very much folks.

Sorry to tell you this but I think you made a mistake in appealing; in Switzerland every such administrative decision can be appealed but that just triggers another process the costs of which you will also have to pay, I would say there is almost no possibility they will "drop it" or reduce the fine.

The general advice people give here in these situates is pay up at the earliest possible moment (and don't speed again)

thanks maybe you re right

are you a policeman by any chance yourself ? "and dont speed again"
something my mother might say
point taken

No, I'm not, that's simply the advice you get here, don't speed, chances are you'll get caught and you have more or less no chance of fighting the fines, appealing just add to the cost

Pay the fine man, you can well afford it!

Or don't and never visit Switzerland again, or take the chance and have whatever you are driving impounded. Maybe

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Law of the land, etc, blah blah

folks it has been interesting to get your views
and clearly people have strong views on it. im not so sure appealing was such a bad idea as said earlier. at least i didnt ignore it ! which i am absolutely certain half of you would have can we do polls here ?

i will update this thread here if nothing happens within 6 months ive made a note to do that
i will also update you if i get further contact.

If you appealed in English I very much doubt that's legal. I say this as someone who lives abroad. You are lucky it's English you replied in, at least there's a good chance though they understand that and might desk with your appeal.

Here I have to do everything legal in English but civil servants who know English will helpful speak to foreigners in English.

In Switzerland, you are better off "not speeding" and if you do get caught "not appealing", it's too late on those points (although you could check if they've received you appeal and accept is as a valid appeal, if they say no ask if can you pay immediately). Whatever you do, my suggestion to you is not to complicate matters any further, by discussions on international agreements or insisting on everything in English, they might actually take your requests seriously and deal with them but finally you will have to pay for everything and such work does not come cheap. As many have discovered before you, the easiest and cheapest way out is to pay up at the first possible moment.

Hi Planck

You are obviously very knowledgeable on this. Can I ask you if you get this, if I have no correspondence from them lets say for the next 6 months, have you any insight into what might be happening with the fine and the appeal at that point ?

thank you

This is a frequent coffee-corner topic of discussion with lots of horror stories. My understanding is this:
1) you have challenged the decision, they will check the records, confirm the offence and if you are lucky just confirm the fine and charge you the costs of the appeal (if you are unlucky, they might even increase the original fine but whatever happens they will process it)
2) I think they will not consider issues like "ability to pay" etc at this stage so there was no point appealing on that basis (perhaps that could be dealt with afterwards but the fine is the fine)
3) I think you will hear from them within the next six months, it's not a complicated matter so probably within the next few months, I would be very surprised if you never heard from them again.
4) Having initiated the appeal, perhaps I am wrong but I think you could consider yourself quite lucky if the final bill is less than 1000€
5) Finally, I would still suggest to you to contact them, tell them you misunderstood their letter, apologise for the offence and ask if you could pay the fine immediately. I have never heard of a speeding appeal that went well. Hope that helps.

excellent Planck thank you. Just to clarify my appeal letter challenged the *size* of the fine versus EU equivalents and incomes. I accept I must pay *a* fine.
So I asked for a reduced fine.
Maybe theres no chance but I made my points in the letter.

The problem is even if they accepted that argument and went though the process of calculating an equivalent fine (which I think they won't), in a very best case you would end up with a reduced fine but you will anyway pay the costs of the appeal. I think they will reject the argument completely, you committed the offence here and that's the fine here, and now you have the appeal costs also. But it's only my opinion.

bmount said:

excellent Planck thank you. Just to clarify my appeal letter challenged the *size* of the fine versus EU equivalents and incomes. I accept I must pay *a* fine.
So I asked for a reduced fine.
Maybe theres no chance but I made my points in the letter.

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You are dealing with a Civil Law court not a Common Law court as in Ireland, that means there is no such thing as extenuating circumstances, the letter of the law is applied. Your only defence could have been that you were not driving and that you were able to supply them with the name of the driver. You did not do this, but instead wasted their time with a nonsense appeal, meaning you should probably expect they will have upped the total to the max.... I'd expect the next reminder will be north of €1,000 and possibly as high as twice the original fine, say €1,300.

This is not going to go away, because that is not the Swiss way. If left unpaid it will continue to collect further charges and penalties, of which you will be reminded. Eventually it will be come a criminal matter.

I'm still struggling to see the validity or relevance of the "shudda cudda wudda" defence. If you were Swiss and were earning a Swiss income you could afford the fine, but you're not so they should reduce it to suit your income as you can't afford it; if you could you wudda paid it. And you can't speak French so they shudda sent you a translation and they're not in the EU but if they were, you cudda done x, y or z.

You broke the speed limit according to your numbers by c. 29%. In Australia, which is substantially a common law jurisdiction, the penalties for certain traffic offences / moving violations are imposed at the point of detection. Your vehicle can be impounded (for speeding), your licence can be suspended (for speeding) and fines can be imposed - there is no appeal. The fines take no account of means or other circumstances. You attend the designated State office or court and pay up within the specified time or the penalties may increase, up to and including imprisonment.

Pay the fine or the increased financial penalty before it becomes a millstone around your neck. I hope your son recovers fully and gets to enjoy more Swiss holidays at the discounted EU wages rates.

Jim2007 said:

You are dealing with a Civil Law court not a Common Law court as in Ireland, that means there is no such thing as extenuating circumstances, the letter of the law is applied. Your only defence could have been that you were not driving and that you were able to supply them with the name of the driver. You did not do this, but instead wasted their time with a nonsense appeal, meaning you should probably expect they will have upped the total to the max.... I'd expect the next reminder will be north of €1,000 and possibly as high as twice the original fine, say €1,300.

This is not going to go away, because that is not the Swiss way. If left unpaid it will continue to collect further charges and penalties, of which you will be reminded. Eventually it will be come a criminal matter.

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I think the OP is already in possession of his Honar Rechnung, or possible even his first Mahnung.

mathepac said:

I'm still struggling to see the validity or relevance of the "shudda cudda wudda" defence. If you were Swiss and were earning a Swiss income you could afford the fine, but you're not so they should reduce it to suit your income as you can't afford it; if you could you wudda paid it. And you can't speak French so they shudda sent you a translation and they're not in the EU but if they were, you cudda done x, y or z.

You broke the speed limit according to your numbers by c. 29%. In Australia, which is substantially a common law jurisdiction, the penalties for certain traffic offences / moving violations are imposed at the point of detection. Your vehicle can be impounded (for speeding), your licence can be suspended (for speeding) and fines can be imposed - there is no appeal. The fines take no account of means or other circumstances. You attend the designated State office or court and pay up within the specified time or the penalties may increase, up to and including imprisonment.

Pay the fine or the increased financial penalty before it becomes a millstone around your neck. I hope your son recovers fully and gets to enjoy more Swiss holidays at the discounted EU wages rates.

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The salary aspect of this is not relevant. You could be a shelf stacker in Migros (the equivalent of Tesco) and you would still get the same fine.

Appealling is just wasting time and the fine needs to be paid. As Jim said, it is not going away.

This happens to loads of guys buzzing through Switzerland on their way to some track event. They always end up paying, its the Swiss way.

SirMille said:

I am guessing you were caught twice outside built up areas doing between 16-20kph, and once doing between 11-15kph.

Any faster and you would have received a summons.

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1. Three offences, speeding between 16 - 20 kph and 11 - 15 kph, I could easily cycle at those speeds. €600 minimum fine although the law in Switzerland is steep . And I wonder if the Swiss pay such fines regularly? (They probably do!). Or is this a nice little earner for the local authorities in Switzerland waiting for unsuspecting non Swiss tourists?

2. If the OP never visits Switzerland again and does not pay the fine, What is the likely scenario?