What features would a fair mortgage have?

gnf_ireland

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@Brendan Burgess is it worth trying to arrange a meeting with Mr Cunningham of Frank Mortgages in advance of its 'pending' launch and see if it would be possible to outline some of the main issues with the current lending practices and ask him to consider addressing some of them contractually in their mortgage agreements - e.g. treat existing & new customers fairly and set a maximum cap the mortgage rate in the event they go out of business etc (or maybe in general)


It will also be interesting to see if they offer incentives to switch (legal contribution) or cashback offers (with clawback)
 
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@Brendan Burgess is it worth trying to arrange a meeting with Mr Cunningham in advance of its 'pending' launch and see if it would be possible to outline some of the main issues with the current lending practices and ask him to consider addressing some of them contractually in their mortgage agreements

I think it's an excellent idea to set out what borrowers would like from a new lender. I will kick off a list:

1) Fair mortgage rates i.e. a lot lower than the current rates
2) A commitment that existing borrowers would be able to avail of rates on offer to new customers.
3) When the Loan to Value reduces, the rate reduces also. And I would accept that if the LTV increases , the rate increases.
4) No tricks or gimmicks to hide high rates
5) A tracker
Ideally a tracker for the duration of the mortgage. Of course,they won't be able to do cheap trackers ECB +1%. But something like ECB +2.5% for <50% Loan to Value
If they can't do trackers for the full length of the mortgage, then a tracker for 3 years or 5 years.
6) A rate cap. "Whatever happens the ECB rate the rate charged by us will not exceed 5% over the next 10 years."
7) An overpayment and redraw facility. KBC allows customers to overpay their mortgage and then withdraw the overpayment whenever they want.
8) Pre approval for further borrowing. Let's say I get mortgage approval for €300k based on my income and LTV. But I need only €200k. I can draw down the remaining €100k if I need it. Subject to a review of credit status. Clearly if I have been missing payments, then I would not get it.
8) An interest only mortgage. Repaying capital on mortgages over 60% LTV should be optional.
9) An indefinite mortgage - there is no reason why a mortgage should be repaid at a particular age. However, the lender would have to have the right to seek repayment after 20 years.
 
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Could anything be agreed in advance on how the case will be handled in the event of the borrower facing mortgage difficulties?

I know that borrowers don't think that this is possible when they take out a loan, but it will happen inevitably to some of Frank's customers.

I have asked the lenders to come with a Protocol for Unsustainable Mortgages which would specify how the shortfall would be dealt with in the event of a borrower voluntarily surrendering their home. However, I assume that Frank will be conservative lenders so negative equity is a lot less likely to arise.

But maybe something along the lines of "Where a borrower loses their job or suffers a major cut in income, the lender will look favourably on putting them on interest only for up to one year"

Where the LTV is less than 50% , the lender will look favourably on giving them a payment holiday.

Brendan
 
I like the idea of the borrower having an option to avail of a interest only period during the duration of the mortgage.
 
A lot of naivety there Brendan...


1) Fair mortgage rates i.e. a lot lower than the current rates

Market/competition will dictate this....

2) A commitment that existing borrowers would be able to avail of rates on offer to new customers.

Would agree - this should happen...

3) When the Loan to Value reduces, the rate reduces also. And I would accept that if the LTV increases , the rate increases.

Would agree - the issue will be who will pay for the valuation - how often will it be assessed etc etc...

4) No tricks or gimmicks to hide high rates

Not sure what you have in mind here - all retailers will add incentives to try and differentiate their products - mortgage providers will be no different - as long as pricing is clear wouldn't have thought this to be a major issue...

5) A tracker
Ideally a tracker for the duration of the mortgage. Of course,they won't be able to do cheap trackers ECB +1%. But something like ECB +2.5% for <50% Loan to Value
If they can't do trackers for the full length of the mortgage, then a tracker for 3 years or 5 years.


Mortgage providers have lost their shirts on trackers - you'll wait many a long day for them ever to go down that road again - indeed it would be irresponsible of them to do so....

6) A rate cap. "Whatever happens the ECB rate the rate charged by us will not exceed 5% over the next 10 years."

And when cost of funds exceeds 5% and mortgage providers are again losing their shirts on mortgages - you and other financial commentators will articulate how stupid mortgage providers were to offer such an nonsensical guarantee... again not one in the realms of reality...

7) An overpayment and redraw facility. KBC allows customers to overpay their mortgage and then withdraw the overpayment whenever they want.

Seems reasonable - but I presume mortgage providers will want to put some controls on it as it's potentially an administrative nightmare - not sure if there would be a capital implication as in effect the overpayments would represent a potential undrawn facility....

8) Pre approval for further borrowing. Let's say I get mortgage approval for €300k based on my income and LTV. But I need only €200k. I can draw down the remaining €100k if I need it. Subject to a review of credit status. Clearly if I have been missing payments, then I would not get it.

What you've described isn't a pre-approval - it's a formal approval of E300k - but client only draws E200k - again there will be a capital implication if it were to remain available but undrawn...

8) An interest only mortgage. Repaying capital on mortgages over 60% LTV should be optional.

Sanity check on this one??? Has the country tried this before??? If borrowers can't afford capital repayments they shouldn't be borrowing (and mortgage provider shouldn't be lending the money)

9) An indefinite mortgage - there is no reason why a mortgage should be repaid at a particular age. However, the lender would have to have the right to seek repayment after 20 years.

And where will the mortgage provider find the indefinite funds to lend on 'on an indefinite basis'???


Have to say a lot of that sounds like the populous clap trap that emanated in the 'nougties' - and look where that got borrowers and lenders....
 
A lot of naivety there Brendan...


1) Fair mortgage rates i.e. a lot lower than the current rates

Market/competition will dictate this....
Well, you say this, but look at, say, Bank of Ireland. Variable rate of 4.5% for >80% LTV, and 4.2% for 60-80. These are terrible. No-one should be going with them. And yet presumably people are; otherwise they would drop their rates or stop advertising so heavily. Maybe because of their cash back incentive?

But they're not a subprime lender; I don't think they're particularly less strict than the likes of AIB, who offer far better rates. Clearly, for whatever reason, this is not a correctly operating market; otherwise BOI (and others; I'm just picking on them because they're such a prominent player) would be unable to shift these loans.

Beyond the fact that new entrants are signing up to overpriced products when there are cheaper available, moving mortgage provider is also not common enough. Part of this is presumably people trapped in negative equity, but I suspect that others are put off by the perceived complexity of the process. Whatever the reason, if people aren't willing to move in large numbers, it inhibits proper functioning of the market.

I'm not sure why people don't choose the best offerings on staring out, but a lot of people clearly don't; otherwise the most expensive options would have to drop rates. Given that this is not the case, I'm not sure that market forces will actually help the consumer that much here.

Mind you, I'm not sure what the solution is; possibly banning introductory rates and cashbacks would help? I don't think sitting back and waiting for market forces to fix things is the answer, though.
 
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Hi Bank Manager. Thanks for those helpful comments.

One of the problems I have found in talking to lenders, bank managers and the Central Bank is that their attitude is "This is how it's done" rather than asking why? Their innovation is limited to "How can we exploit the customer's ignorance to our advantage?" or "How can we innovate to get market share?"

There is no conflict between treating customers fairly and making profits. If lenders innovate in a way to help and not confuse borrowers, they should become a market leader.

1) Fair mortgage rates i.e. a lot lower than the current rates

Market/competition will dictate this....

That is the point I am making. Most lenders when they come into a market take the price of the current market and don't bother reducing them to where they should be. So Pepper obviously figured out: This is a very profitable market - we will take some of that without reducing prices.

4) No tricks or gimmicks to hide high rates

Not sure what you have in mind here - all retailers will add incentives to try and differentiate their products - mortgage providers will be no different - as long as pricing is clear wouldn't have thought this to be a major issue...

The 2% cash back is the worst offender here. It ties in the borrower for 5 years into high mortgage rates. And it discourages switchers and new entrants. This ties into the fair and lower mortgage rates. They should try to get new business through attractive, lower rates instead of through gimmicks.


5) A tracker
Ideally a tracker for the duration of the mortgage. Of course,they won't be able to do cheap trackers ECB +1%. But something like ECB +2.5% for <50% Loan to Value
If they can't do trackers for the full length of the mortgage, then a tracker for 3 years or 5 years.


Mortgage providers have lost their shirts on trackers - you'll wait many a long day for them ever to go down that road again - indeed it would be irresponsible of them to do so....

They lost their shirt on trackers because of the margin of 1%, not because they were trackers as such. The UK lenders offer trackers. The Irish lenders offer their commercial customers loans tracking Euribor and Costs of Funds. There is nothing wrong with trackers.


6) A rate cap. "Whatever happens the ECB rate the rate charged by us will not exceed 5% over the next 10 years."

And when cost of funds exceeds 5% and mortgage providers are again losing their shirts on mortgages - you and other financial commentators will articulate how stupid mortgage providers were to offer such an nonsensical guarantee... again not one in the realms of reality...

Well what happens if a lender offers a fixed rate of 3.5% and the cost of funds exceeds 5%? Irish lenders can offer a rate cap and presumably buy a financial product to offload their risk. With rates forecast to be very low for the future, this should be relatively cheap. Of course, it would have to be priced into the rate which might make it too expensive.

However, such a rate cap would give the borrower comfort that they lender will not exploit them by pushing up the rate to an excessive level.


8) Pre approval for further borrowing. Let's say I get mortgage approval for €300k based on my income and LTV. But I need only €200k. I can draw down the remaining €100k if I need it. Subject to a review of credit status. Clearly if I have been missing payments, then I would not get it.

What you've described isn't a pre-approval - it's a formal approval of E300k - but client only draws E200k - again there will be a capital implication if it were to remain available but undrawn...

That's a much better way of looking at it. Does it happen in practice? If I get mortgage approval in principle for €300k and only draw down €200k, I presume that I can't come back later and draw down the €200k, unless it's a self-build mortgage with different stages of draw down.

8) An interest only mortgage. Repaying capital on mortgages over 60% LTV should be optional.

Sanity check on this one??? Has the country tried this before??? If borrowers can't afford capital repayments they shouldn't be borrowing (and mortgage provider shouldn't be lending the money)

It's not so much a sanity check as, challenge yourself to think about it. Check out this post which shows how it works in Switzerland.

The mortgage system in Switzerland

There is absolutely no good reason why a going concern lender with a performing 60% LTV mortgage and a profitable margin should want any capital repayments. Why would they? So that they would lend them on to a new customer?



9) An indefinite mortgage - there is no reason why a mortgage should be repaid at a particular age. However, the lender would have to have the right to seek repayment after 20 years.

And where will the mortgage provider find the indefinite funds to lend on 'on an indefinite basis'???

It's the same place as they get their funding now. Deposits for the main part and mortgage backed securities.
 
Well what happens if a lender offers a fixed rate of 3.5% and the cost of funds exceeds 5%? Irish lenders can offer a rate cap and presumably buy a financial product to offload their risk. With rates forecast to be very low for the future, this should be relatively cheap. Of course, it would have to be priced into the rate which might make it too expensive.

Well, for the immediate future. Is anyone really forecasting with any confidence that rates will remain low for a decade, though?
 
Is anyone really forecasting with any confidence that rates will remain low for a decade, though?

@WorstPigeon you can get a 10 year fixed rate mortgage in Spain for 2.45% currently and 20 years fixed at 3.15%. Obviously financial institutions in Spain has made some calls there, or are funded through long term bonds.
I took an easy reference in English rather than spanish

http://www.imsmortgages.com/spanish-mortgages/best-buy-loan-tables/

In Belgium, KBC offer 20 year fixed rate mortgages for 3.15%. In Ireland they change existing variable rate mortgage holders 4.05% when the ECB interest rates are rock bottom !
 
Ah, wow, thanks. I knew European rates were good, but I hadn't realised they were that good. I was in Spain on holidays last year, and was amazed at the advertised rates in bank windows, but I assumed they were just variable (I can't speak Spanish).
 
@WorstPigeon this is the whole premise of Brendan's campaign, and to be fair he has been pushing this topic a long time with very limited support. Can you imagine what a 20 year 3.15% fixed rate would mean to someone. For one, it would remove the need to stress test at 2% above the current rate, as there would be no need for this. This would definitely assist first time buyers on affordability !
 
@Bank Manager While I don't necessarily agree with all of the comments made above by Brendan, I do think its worth us Irish people opening our eyes as to how mortgages work in other places. If others can avail of much cheaper rates, then clearly we are doing something wrong that we cannot do the same. Its either a commercial, legislative or regulatory environment which is stopping the lower rates. We appear to be the odd one out when it comes to Eurozone mortgage options, and this is what I would like to see changed.

I am all for taking the best of each country's system and coming up with a new system that works. But this may take time, and in the meantime, I think a bit of fairness in the system would not go astray.

I am all for not changing something if its not broken, but clearly the Irish model is broken. Minimal repossessions, some of the highest rates in the Eurozone, lack of long term fixed rate options, very high default rates etc. It clearly is broken, so maybe it is time to come up with a new system that would work rather than saying this is how things are done today.

But then again, lots of people are resistant to change - and maybe this is the true root cause of the issues.
 
Good post and I have two questions
1. In other countries, are existing and new customers offered the same rates or are there introductory rates or offers for new business
2. Number 3 above, how would you like this to work in practice? I like the idea but not sure how it could work
 
2. Number 3 above, how would you like this to work in practice? I like the idea but not sure how it could work
Fair point! All things being equal the loan risk will improve in line with the packback/upward movement in property prices. Offering a tiered LTV rate system to existing clients would involve a very clear set of rules on property valuations. Cost of valuation would also need to be factored in. The market is moving somewhat in this direction where the highest rate would be on the >80% LTV and tiered down by circa 20% increments.
However if the pricing of the loan is based purely on risk then this must surely also take into account the re-possession issues. I.e. If loan goes bad then the bank must have a recourse to its security. Current 3/5 year repossession delay is a cost that must be borne by all mortgage holders.
 
Ideally a tracker for the duration of the mortgage. Of course,they won't be able to do cheap trackers ECB +1%. But something like ECB +2.5% for <50% Loan to Value
If they can't do trackers for the full length of the mortgage, then a tracker for 3 years or 5 years.
.

Should you not also give people and option to fix?. When interest rates start to rise (which at some stage over the 25 years of a mortgage, they will), people may want the option to fix to reduce risk.

Secondly, (and speaking as an Ulster Bank customer here,) the difficulty in making an extra payment against the mortgage if I have a few hundred spare at the end of the month is annoying. I can't do so electronically. Hence any mortgage provider should have the means for a customer to make additional ad hoc payments online if they wish and such payments should reduce the capital outstanding
 
While it's easy to compare lending rates in Europe and Ireland, its not really meaningful unless the (i) respective cost of funds, (ii) the respective risks of default, and (iii) the respective default recovery rates are also compared.
 
Some banks don't access ECB funding though, or have a blended funding rate, so shouldn't any tracker be at "cost of funds plus X"?

I'm strongly of the view that rates need to fall (and will fall), but some of these wish-list items are akin to asking for a Michelin star meal at takeaway prices. Give me the cheapest rate possible please. Things like flexible random capital repayments or protection in the event of unemployment cost money.
 
Things like flexible random capital repayments or protection in the event of unemployment cost money.

Hi Gordon

Flexible random capital repayments on a variable rate mortgage are a right under the Consumer Credit Act.

Protection in the event of unemployment shouldn't be a feature of a mortgage. It should be provided by an insurance company.
 
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