Valuer overvalued the house in 2006. Do I have any comeback now?

No it has 2 bedrooms too.

he vaguely remembers the broker saying that he may get the valuer to put down "an extra few bedrooms" to help get the mortgage.

She did not see it at the time of taking out the mortgage, and was not asked to supply projections or figures for futures rents etc. If she had been, she would have realized it was un-affordable and would not have taken out the mortgage.

This is going to be harsh so don't read it if you don't want to hear it.

- Borrower buys investment property without knowing anything about property

- The bank did have proper security, they have it on this property and your sister is liable wheter the property is worth the same amount of the mortgage or not they have their security, which your sister if fully liable for

- Borrower purchases with a mortgage that was not sustainable. Why?

-Borrower purchases with a mortgage that was not affordable - can you explain this? Are you saying from day one she couldn't afford the mortgage?

- Borrower knew the valuer was playing hocus pockus with the figures (as was the whole country back in the day and we all knew it the banks, the brokers, the valuers and the borrowers - false P60's, inflated rent counted as income etc )

- Borrower buys house in the middle of no where, with single glazing and no central heating, does she need to be a professional to understand that nobody would rent such a property, not unless they were desparate. Would she live in it?

- Borrower never bother to run a rental projection herself ! Whose fault is this? You seem to be implying it's the banks or brokers or valuers fault?
 
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he believed what she was told that it would make a good investment. She trusted the broker (who also was an estate agent) who said it was a good buy....who said he and the valuer and the bank worked out figures and that it was a good buy and she could afford it. They were the experts, and she was assured she could trust them. It seems the trust was misplaced when they may have calculated her repayment ability on a 6 bedroom buy to let instead of a 2 bedroom....but even then she would not have been able to make the repayments once the interest only period expired.

OMG. Even aside from that, did she not even do some basic math on this?

As your on a hiding to nothing with your queries how about you actually ask the questions that might help her. It may not be solveable but then again there might be a solution. If you want help with that you have to give us the following details:

Mortgage
Value
Arrears
Repayments
Interest rate
Rental income
Rental history (easy, impossible, hassle, distance)
Salary
Other property
Married or partner - do they own property
Their salary
Ages
Kids
 
She wouldn't have got the mortgage unless her income allowed her to borrow it.
That may be what you would like to believe. Its common sense that she SHOULD'nt have got the mortgage unless her income allowed her to borrow it. She did however get the mortgage even though her income was not sufficient to pay the mortgage. The bank may have calculated her repayment ability on a 6 bedroom buy to let instead of a 2 bedroom, but even then she would not have been able to make the repayments once the interest only period expired.
You saying the borrower "wouldn't have got the mortgage unless her income allowed her to borrow it" is like saying engineers wouldn't have built longboat quay if it was a fire trap, or VW engineers wouldn't have tried to fool consumers or regulators either.

The bank did have proper security, they have it on this property
The bank does not have the security it thought it had - it thought it had the title on a six bedroom centrally heated, double glazed property worth xxxxxx in year yyyy. It turns out two other valuers, proper valuers! -valued it at nearly half that (one that year, one a year afterwards), as it was really a 2 bedroom cottage.

- Borrower buys house in the middle of no where,

- Borrower never bother to run a rental projection herself ! Whose fault is this? You seem to be implying it's the banks or brokers or valuers fault?
It is not quite in the middle of nowhere. The bank should have checked to see if the borrower could afford the mortgage or not. She was told she could, by the people who were so called property and financial experts. Would it not be normal for a bank to see if a borrower could afford a mortgage or not? Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing, she should have asked for a copy of the valuation and the projections at the time.

Borrower knew the valuer was playing hocus pockus with the figures

Incorrect. As said before "the borrower vaguely remembers the broker saying that he may get the valuer to put down "an extra few bedrooms" to help get the mortgage. The borrower thought the broker was joking and was extremely surprised to see the valuation report only recently."

The borrower was not given a copy of the valuation at the time, despite having paid for it. The borrower has paid a heavy price and nobody is suggesting she does not deserve to suffer a major loss. Indeed her life has been ruined. It would not have been had the valuer and bank done their jobs properly and honestly. Yet they have got away with it, so far at least?
What about the role of the "valuer"- as the self-employed engineer / draughts-man was called, and the bank? Anyone else know of a case where a property price was inflated and the valuation included 6 bedrooms instead of 2, heating and glazing etc changed so the buy to let mortgage would look half viable to a bank?
Or is this case exceptional?
 
Copy of valuation reports were sent out with loan offers, how come she is only seeing it now?
 
Copy of valuation reports were sent out with loan offers, how come she is only seeing it now?

What do you mean "were sent out with loan offers"? They were not in this case, at least not to the borrower. The borrower did not see the valuation until years after the mortgage was arranged, and had to request it. Is it normal practice for a bank to (a) see if a person can afford repayments and (b) send out a valuation report with a loan offer? Also, the borrower was not told or given any indication how much the monthly mortgage repayments would be once the interest only period of a few years expired.
 
The valuation report is a report that values the property. It is not a structural report. The information is for the banks benefit. They are only interested to see if the house is worth the money being advanced against it. I am aware that the financial institution gets the borrower to pay for this report in most cases. It is up to the borrower to get their own structural survey.
Back in the day when I was arranging valuation reports, it was common practice to tell the valuer the purchase price of the property. In 99.9% of cases the valuation report matched that price unless there was something drastically wrong with the property such as subsidence etc
 
Yes, copies of valuation reports have to be sent out with loan offers, it is normal practice.
 
Yes, copies of valuation reports have to be sent out with loan offers, it is normal practice.

This is correct.

Josephine,
when your sister signed the mortgage application did she state that property she was purchasing was a 2 or 6 bed property? Look at it this way, if she signed the application saying that it was a 6 bed instead of the 2 bed then the way a bank or FSO would look at it was that she knowingly lied on the application to get the mortgage. Theres no buts of ifs or the broker completed the blanks - her signature is on the application end of story.

Its beyond belief that someone would buy an investment property & not know or ask what the full capital & interest repayment would be once the interest only period ended - theres plenty of calculators online or a phonecall to the bank that would have told her that.

When buying anything of value you have to do a certain level of due diligence which your sister obviously didnt.

If I was you I'd leave it go as you will only get more agitated & its going nowhere. She's not alone in making poor decisions in the tiger years, theres plenty more out there in worse situations.
 
Its common sense that she SHOULD'nt have got the mortgage unless her income allowed her to borrow it. She did however get the mortgage even though her income was not sufficient to pay the mortgage.

How then did she pay the mortgage from day one if her income wasn't enough to cover it?

Incorrect. As said before "the borrower vaguely remembers the broker saying that he may get the valuer to put down "an extra few bedrooms" to help get the mortgage. The borrower thought the broker was joking and was extremely surprised to see the valuation report only recently."

Most bizarre

This is very much a case of amateurish property speculation and your sister by the sound of it has got terrible burned.

Consider giving the details Bronte is asking for on post no 22 above and maybe some solutions may become apparent in order to further help your sister.
 
The valuation report is a report that values the property. It is not a structural report. The information is for the banks benefit. They are only interested to see if the house is worth the money being advanced against it.

Correct. That is what is supposed to happen. But what happens if the house is not worth the money being advanced against it?

Back in the day when I was arranging valuation reports
Were all valuers proper, reputable valuers who worked as auctioneers / valuers, and who had training and experience in valuing property? Would an engineering technician / draughts-man qualification suffice to be on a bank valuation panel?
Did you ever come across a valuation where extra rooms were added, a property value - or potential buy to let income increased etc? A yes or no answer will suffice.

Its beyond belief that someone would buy an investment property & not know or ask what the full capital & interest repayment would be once the interest only period ended
I have seen the file and the bank did not indicate what the monthly or indeed yearly interest and capital repayments were likely to be. My sister did ask the broker but she was told it would be impossible to know exactly as interest rates would fluctuate, but that she could afford it, they calculated that or they would not be lending her the money, the broker said. Leave that to the experts, he said. Should the bank not have indicated likely monthly capital and interest repayments?


when your sister signed the mortgage application did she state that property she was purchasing was a 2 or 6 bed property?
On the mortgage application, which the broker filled in and my sister signed, it said it was a cottage and the address but it did not give the number of bedrooms, surprise surprise!


How then did she pay the mortgage from day one if her income wasn't enough to cover it?

it was interest only for the first number of years, but the interest only period has expired. She has had a miserable life, no social life or holidays, sold her car and used up savings etc.

Yes, copies of valuation reports have to be sent out with loan offers, it is normal practice.

And as it was not, does she have any comeback? The reason they presumably did not send the copy of the valuation report at the time was because if they did, she would have seen something was very wrong. (6 bedrooms instead of 2 etc).
 
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I'm wondering what is triggering this now, must be interest only is up.

J - her life is not ruined, she is having a very difficult time of it, but far too much energy is wasted on venting on this thread instead of focusing on solutions. How about some figures please, that's if you genuinely want to help your sister.

If you want to continue blaming the bank, the broker the valuer you would be better off contacting those madcap organisations that give amazing 'advice' to in debt borrowers clutching at straws.

By the way, what did your sister think would happen when the interest only was up?
 
So what you are saying is that the broker, completed the mortgage application form on behalf of your sister, leaving out relevant information but your sister signed it anyway, Would she not have filled in the blanks? Did the broker then fill in the blanks after with false information?
Did your sister conspire with the broker to get a loan on a supposedly 6 bedroomed house when it in fact had only two bedrooms?
Are you saying that the broker and valuer were in cahoots to get this loan for your sister and she turned a blind eye to what was going on?
This was a buy to let. Had she been through a mortgage experience before?
 
So what you are saying is that the broker, completed the mortgage application form on behalf of your sister, leaving out relevant information but your sister signed it anyway

The broker said it was a cottage and the address but it did not give the number of bedrooms. The broker was the expert at mortgages and advised accordingly.


Did your sister conspire with the broker to get a loan on a supposedly 6 bedroomed house when it in fact had only two bedrooms?

My sister would have had no control on what it was valued at, or what the valuer would have written.
As said before "the borrower vaguely remembers the broker saying that he may get the valuer to put down "an extra few bedrooms" to help get the mortgage. The borrower thought the broker was joking and was extremely surprised to see the valuation report only recently." My sister thought someone from the bank would go out with the valuer to inspect the property, such was her innocence! I wonder does auditing of valuers ever happen? What is your experience on this, as you have arranged valuations?

Are you saying that the broker and valuer were in cahoots to get this loan for your sister and she turned a blind eye to what was going on?

My sister did not see the valuation or know what was on it until years later. Like buyers of Priory Hall and Longboat quay, she trusted other peoples - the "experts!"- assurances at the time, and had other things to worry about. Perhaps this individual broker and the individual self-employed home based valuer were more interested in their commission / targets / bonus than anything else? Why else would they and the bank let a loan slip through when they know the borrower could not pay it back once the interest only period was over?
Ever heard of that happening before?

Perhaps an investigation should be carried out, do you not think? So history will not be repeated, so to speak. Do you think its ok the valuer valued it as a 6 bedroom, double glazed centrally heated property? How do you explain two other valuers, proper valuers! -valued it at nearly half that (one that year, one a year afterwards), as it was really a 2 bedroom cottage?

This was a buy to let. Had she been through a mortgage experience before?
No. It was a means of "getting her foot on the property ladder", the broker said. She was inexperienced and had not a business head. She did not even know a copy of the valuation report was supposed to have been to be sent out with the loan offers. There was no documentation from the bank at the time saying she should have got a valuation report. Have you ever heard of that happening, no valuation report with loan offer, but bank reluctantly releasing it after several requests years later?

Now, I have answered your questions, Grizzly. Any chance you would please have the courtesy of answering mine, the ones I asked you already, seeing as you say you have experience of "arranging valuation reports". Here they are again, the questions I asked you on Friday:

(a) You wrote "The valuation report is a report that values the property. It is not a structural report. The information is for the banks benefit. They are only interested to see if the house is worth the money being advanced against it.
I wrote "Correct. That is what is supposed to happen. But what happens if the house is not worth the money being advanced against it?"

(b) Were all valuers proper, reputable valuers who worked as auctioneers / valuers, and who had training and experience in valuing property?

(c) Would an engineering technician / draughts-man qualification suffice to be on a bank valuation panel?

(d) Did you ever come across a valuation where extra rooms were added, a property value - or potential buy to let income increased etc? A yes or no answer will suffice.

Thank you.
 
You've stated twice that two other valuations were carried out on the property, one the year of the loan and the other the year after.
How and why were these done?
Why did your sister not act then, within a few months of her purchase at a price significantly above the second valuation she got?
There is an awful lot not adding up in this story.
 
Josephine.

:Looks like your sister was naiive and got well caught by unscrupulous people and banks who just wanted to lend.
on your questions.

A = tough luck.
B = none.
C = Could be ,.
D= Far too often.

I know you are trying very hard (I have sympathy with you) to see if there is a real chance of success in chasing the {experts} but I just don,t see it.
Brendans original answer holds , Sorry !
 
When I arranged a valuation I chose from a list of valuers on a panel. Usually the one nearest the house.
It would appear that a similar system was in place with your erm sister.
When I arranged a valuation I chose from a list of valuers on a panel. Usually the one nearest the house.

Who says that the house was not worth the money being advanced against it. Except you. A 5 bedroomed house in Tallaght would not be priced the same as a 5 bedroomed house in Ballsbridge. Land/location can add value to a house, did the cottage have much land? Maybe the bank took other factors into consideration before advancing the loan.

Yes. All valuers on the panel where I worked had many years experience in valuations.

I never came across a house where extra rooms were added to the valuation report.

I know for a fact that the customer ALWAYS received a copy of the valuation report.

Did your sister have a solicitor to advise her, examine the deeds etc? He also gets a copy of the loan approval letter plus supporting documentation.

I certainly remember seeing, false P60'S, false payslips, exaggerated overtime claims, people stating that they would rent out a bedroom in their house when they never had any intention of doing this in order to get a larger loan.

When your sister arranged Fire Insurance for the property, which would have been compulsory before getting the loan, how many bedrooms did she state were in the property when completing the form? This is a standard question on every proposal form. What did the policy document state when she got her copy?
 
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(a) You wrote "The valuation report is a report that values the property. It is not a structural report. The information is for the banks benefit. They are only interested to see if the house is worth the money being advanced against it.
I wrote "Correct. That is what is supposed to happen. But what happens if the house is not worth the money being advanced against it?"
As long as the bank is paid its interest and eventually its principal, they don't care if the valuation is wrong. If things go pear-shaped they will pursue the borrower as much as they can - all the way to a forced sale of the property if necessary; then they will continue to pursue the borrower as much as they can for any shortfall. Having crystallised a loss on a forced sale, the bank may go after the valuer if they feel they have a case and it is worth their while (no point pursuing the valuer if he has no money and/or no insurance). If the bank succeeds against the valuer and he (or his insurers) can mitigate the loss, the borrower's shortfall should be reduced by the net amount of any successful action against the valuer. But it is totally in the bank's hands - they are the ones suffering a loss as a result of the valuer's incorrect valuation so only they can pursue the valuer.
 
You've stated twice that two other valuations were carried out on the property, one the year of the loan and the other the year after.
How and why were these done?
Six months after the purchase, she became aware of someone elses valuation from someone, a friend of a friend, who had an auctioneer, a proper one with a commercial office, value it prior to her purchase. She was concerned and got another valuation. She mentioned the subject to the broker / estate agent but got fobbed off. She did not know then the banks valuer had valued it as a 6 bedroom property with double glazing etc.

I never came across a house where extra rooms were added to the valuation report.

Thanks for that. Its clear that this case is very unusual, and the bank did not carry out due diligence and have questions to answer in relation to their valuer. Maybe thats at least partly why the bank have offered her a deal / a large reduction on the balance owed provided she signs a non disclosure document. Hence neither she or I are going to divulge details of the location, name of bank, amount of loan or write-down etc as someone may identify her.

When your sister arranged Fire Insurance for the property, which would have been compulsory before getting the loan, how many bedrooms did she state were in the property when completing the form?
Two bedrooms of course, she never dreamed anyone would put anything but that on any documentation or anything else. It was always 2 bedroom-ed as far as she was concerned.
 
whether there is any blame here or not, and to who the liability is (or might be), is perhaps irrelevant as i believe any action would be statute barred at this stage?
 
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