Greece ... Thank You

It is interesting that only 62% of the population voted. Given the current state of Greece you would think the turnout would have been higher. Even if it was for a referendum which was going nowhere irrespective of the outcome. Talk of debt forgiveness is premature. Greece have gone backwards from last October when they were forecasting for 2015 a 2.9% increase in GDP, a further reduction of unemployment and the debt/GDP ratio dropping to 160%. The current Greek government appears to be determined to run the country into the ground and are doing so while demanding acclaim for "standing up" to the creditors. As to who will have to swallow any debt forgiveness, their nearest neighbours will be worst affected (Malta, Spain, Italy et al) but they themselves will bankrupt their own banks. There is a sizeable lump of cash that the Greek government owes Greek banks and those banks will not be able to absorb any haircut on that.
 
I think calling a referendum was incredibly unfair as it lobbed the decision on the general public who are totally confused at this stage...they were voting on a deal that had expired for God's sake! The public don't know all the facts, nor are they privy to the dealings & mood of the creditors. It was a lame and weak get-out by Tsipras.

I am expecting Irish bond rates to start increasing by the end of the week. As an aside, there might be a small positive in this for us - as we are still borrowing ourselves, it will be more expensive for FG/Labour to implement tax cuts / increased spending in the near future if the cost of borrowing to do so increases.
 
I agree - it was totally unfair. An abdication of the responsibility he courted by running for election. He pretty well knew he couldn't get it past parliament and I think that was why he called the referendum. It would suit him either way. When it emerged that the offer was no longer valid then he called for a no vote.
 
Does anyone know how austere the present hits are on the Greek people?
Does anyone know what is the old age pension rate?
Does anyone know how hard the proposed measures would have impacted on the citizens?

I find it strange that thinking people in Greece would have voted NO unless they felt that quick Armageddon was preferable to death by Troika?

I tire of hearing that Greece must this or Europe must that , without being able to get a handle on were the kbeing
 
It seems to me to have been extremely risky.

Most of the time it will result in the Greeks exiting the euro and the banks staying closed.

The creditors may cave in and give him everything he wants in which case it will turn out to have worked well.

Or they may not agree to his proposals in which case the banks will remain closed until they convert everything to Drachmas. It will be extremely difficult for him to agree to anything now.

Brendan
 
I think that there is a bigger risk. When the Greek people realise that they are back to the Drachma and receiving pensions in a greatly devalued currency, there could be widespread rioting and probably an actual revolt. Not sure what the Greek army is like these days, but they might have to restore order. This is not a forecast, but it's the type of risk that they are facing.
 
Not chance the lady would get the helmet either....such a gentleman indeed!

_84082307_yanisbike.jpg
 
Does anyone know what is the old age pension rate?

In most EU countries there is no fixed, flat-rated pension, as pensions are linked to previous wages.

Ireland is unique, or one of very few countries, that has a flat-rated pension of 230.30 per week.
 
"Austerity". What does it mean? Technically it means "fiscal consolidation" but it also gets intermingled in the public mind with its more colloquial meaning of "hardship". Sinn Fein are masters of this ambiguity - they trumpet on about the evils of austerity, playing up the latter meaning but they are also not at all shy in spouting pseudo Keynesian style economic arguments against the technical meaning.

Paul Krugman, Nobel laureate, is the leading intellectual cheerleader for the international anti austerity movement. Paul is now advocating a Grexit and massive devaluation. So at least we know that Paul has no qualms about hardship - if his recipe is followed Greek pensioners will suffer a misery on a different scale from the so called austerity of the bail out offer.
 
Prior to all these economic crises I'd generally understood that the opposite of austerity is extravagance, if so I assume that's why the propagandists prefer to use the term "anti-austerity" instead.
 
In most EU countries there is no fixed, flat-rated pension, as pensions are linked to previous wages.

Ireland is unique, or one of very few countries, that has a flat-rated pension of 230.30 per week.

even you never paid a red cent in income tax during your life , you receive a state pension of 219 per week
 
It's a good idea to challenge the abuse of this word.

If someone or some country can afford to live an extravagant lifestyle, that is fine.

But, as a country, we have been living an extravagant lifestyle by paying high social welfare rates and high public service salaries. We borrowed money instead of raising taxes to do this.

Is the opposite austerity? Not sure. There must be a better word for living within one's means.
 
Boss when I was a boy the term was "fiscal rectitude", remember Mac (Sharry) the Knife? I don't like the term myself as it sounds like a pane where I don't have a window.:rolleyes:

But "Prudence" or "Responsible" seem much better terms. Can you imagine the Anti Prudence Alliance or the Irresponsible Alliance:)
 
Anti-Austerity presupposes Citizens can afford a certain life -style.
If it is a case a State cannot raise enough money/taxes , things like pensions will by necessity be cut to a minimum.

Most of the Anti-Austerity type people ,from what I can see, have genuine concerns over the financial divisions in Society.
It is very easy to deride their (cures)(wacky proposals) but remember ,and I say this with respect , most anti-austerity type voters are not versed in the minutiae of finance and are not what we call (educated).
But I do agree with them on the way elites have manipulated things.
The Anti,s clearly understand that if something walks like a duck ,quacks like a duck ,you do not need to take DNA from a feather to prove its a duck! The Elite turns their noses at the naievety of (these people) and take pot shots at them but do not address Anti,s overall conclusions.
It is instructive, that it is our Anti,s/non -aligned TD,s that lead in raising most concerns, it is very worrying that Government ,who know where things are, seem surprised when things are revealed.
So Anti,s clearly understand that this overall horse-trading is geared to protect Elites ,not citizens.
They clearly see that unless reforms are initiated to benefit everyone ,society will crack.

Greece would appear to have been run for an elite by an elite whilst they,the elite milked European funds,until they got caught out.Mr Average Greek now carries the can.
From what I can see the State Pension in Greece is e100 per week.

Italy has non performing , non provided for ,Bad loans @ 16% of Banks books ,@ 16% are Italys Banks not banjaxed?
I do not see how Italys Banks can survive.

I would suggest that the real blow up has yet to happen?
 
Hi Gerry

I am not sure that austerity protects the elite and not the citizens.

We have a very high national debt. We have an ageing population. We have a very low tax base. There is still a significant risk that Ireland as a nation might go bust. If that happens, there will be savage cuts in pensions and social welfare and health services.

The elite probably won't be hurt too hard if there are such savage cuts. Those dependent on social welfare will suffer the hardest.

Brendan
 
Reuters .... It promised to begin implementing tax and pension measures sought by creditors as early as Monday.

I don't think anyone believes them (Greece) anymore - the boy who cried wolf etc. Anyone else think (apart from the obvious, immediate pain) that Greece would be better of with a weak drachma in the longer term?
 
I think we might all be better off if Greece were encouraged out of the Euro.

We would probably have to write off €300 billion of debt, but we are probably not going to get it back anyway. So it's just a question of recognising it. There is no point in lending Greece €4 billion so that they pay back €4 billion.

A new currency would force austerity on them. They would have no choice but to do what is necessary. (We would never have been able to politically choose austerity in this country had the Troika not been here to enforce it.) It would be painful but it probably would make them more competitive in the longer term.

And we should not have all the Prime Ministers and Finance Ministers and Central Bank governors spending such a huge proportion of their time on Greece.
 
Very interesting 3-part article by Der Spiegel below. When I opened each in Chrome it tries to print the arcticle, but just hit Cancel and it is displayed in an easy-to-read layout.

It looks like both Left & Right governments in Greece were both cooking the books over the years. The outcome does not look particularly rosy for Ireland either I must say....have our bond rates started moving north yet??

[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
 
I think we might all be better off if Greece were encouraged out of the Euro.

We would probably have to write off €300 billion of debt, but we are probably not going to get it back anyway. So it's just a question of recognising it. There is no point in lending Greece €4 billion so that they pay back €4 billion.

A new currency would force austerity on them. They would have no choice but to do what is necessary. (We would never have been able to politically choose austerity in this country had the Troika not been here to enforce it.) It would be painful but it probably would make them more competitive in the longer term.

And we should not have all the Prime Ministers and Finance Ministers and Central Bank governors spending such a huge proportion of their time on Greece.


I agree. Better the cut them lose and take the hit. It would focus the minds of governments in Spain, Portugal, Italy and here to sort out their finances or they would be next. The fear I have is that our bond rates will shoot up if Greece leaves the euro (the fact that a country can leave or be forced out of the euro would make it riskier). This would increase the cost of our existing debt to the point where we could quite easily be borrowing from Peter to pay Paul as per the Greeks. If Greece leaves the euro....all eyes would turn to us, Spain & Portugal fairly rapidly. I think a few pounds in Sterling under the mattress might be an idea!
 
Back
Top