Auschwitz

Purple

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Auschwitz was liberated by the red army 70 years ago today.
They said never again but of course it did happen again and will happen again.
 
Auschwitz was liberated by the red army 70 years ago today.
They said never again but of course it did happen again and will happen again.

The biggest irony is the Jewsish community shedding a tear today but turning a blind eye to the similar atrocities they are carrying out against the Palestinian people.

The commemoration plaque at Dachau was also to be inclusive of all those who suffered in the camps except the Jewish participants kicked off about homosexuals being represented along side them. Seems they haven't learned much themselves.
 
The commemoration plaque at Dachau was also to be inclusive of all those who suffered in the camps except the Jewish participants kicked off about homosexuals being represented along side them. Seems they haven't learned much themselves.

The same thing exists in Auschwitz - There are memorials to all the various groups that died in the camp, but the homosexuals. Its notably absent - its because the current polish regime is so anti-gay - that modern day politics glosses over the past atrocities.
 
The same thing exists in Auschwitz - There are memorials to all the various groups that died in the camp, but the homosexuals. Its notably absent - its because the current polish regime is so anti-gay - that modern day politics glosses over the past atrocities.
Stop telling the truth. You must blame the Jews!
Just as you must equate the mass murder of millions of people with the intention of wiping them off the face of the earth with the excessive actions of an extremist government in Israel.

Bullbars, your comments are disgraceful. There is no comparison between what the Nazis did and the excessive and often criminal response of Israel to Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.
 
Stop telling the truth. You must blame the Jews!
Just as you must equate the mass murder of millions of people with the intention of wiping them off the face of the earth with the excessive actions of an extremist government in Israel.

Bullbars, your comments are disgraceful. There is no comparison between what the Nazis did and the excessive and often criminal response of Israel to Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.
Purple, you shouldn't let idiots like Bullbars wind you up, and if you do you shouldn't qualify in any way the dismissal of her obscenity. There is no comparison whatsoever with what the Israelis feel they must do for sheer survival compared with the deliberate and systematic genocide by the Nazis. And that's not just a numbers game, even if the numbers were equal there would still be no comparison.

These odious comparisons remind of when Saint Mary McAleese compared unionists to Nazis.

You've probably heard of Godwin's law - the fact that as a blog gets longer and longer the probability of reference to the Nazis approaches one, well I'll give you Duke's Law - it seems the same holds these days for a reference to gays.
 
Stop telling the truth. You must blame the Jews!

Why not follow the typical Jewish supporter’s line and call Sol28 an anti-semite / Jew hater etc. Your sarcasm just reaffirms the usual rhetoric spouted by the staunch blinkered Jewish groups; negative comments can only come from those who hate us. Sol28’s post directly and correctly points blame at the Polish Government but that still wasn’t good enough for you.

Just as you must equate the mass murder of millions of people with the intention of wiping them off the face of the earth with the excessive actions of an extremist government in Israel.

The mass murder, as you quite rightly describe the eventual treatment of the, mainly, Jewish victims of the Holocaust was only one part of the Jewish persecution of that era. Too many equate the holocaust as the original aim of the Nazi’s. In truth, they originally wanted to take power away from the Jewish Germans. The death camps were desperate attempts by a maniacal war machine that was on the brink of defeat on three fronts, to cover up their crimes up to then. The Jewish interred were essential workers for the war machine and it was envisaged that this would be their eventual social standing as the Reich was established.

The Nazis came to power in the early 1930’s. Despite common thought, it was the communists that were their original target for vitriol and persecution. It was a convenient link in later years that the communist leaders were mainly made up of those of Jewish faith. This made it extremely easy for the Nazi’s to extend their hate crimes to those Jews with no links to Communism. The Nazis did not just start gassing and burning the Jews in to extinction overnight. It was a gradual process with the seeds being sown as far back as the 1920’s. They started by dehumanising the Jews, gradual reductions in rights, arbitrary and vague laws that are not upheld for other German people but are used extensively and exclusively against Jews. Exactly what goes on in Israel from its inception to this day.

German Jews accounted for less than 1% of the German population but the Jews controlled the vast majority of the banking, financial and accounting sectors as well as the publishing and printing sector. If you weren’t Jewish you wouldn’t succeed in these sectors and that is what irked the rest of the German population and made it easy to stir up racial profiling of the penny pinching Jew and brought in the “Them and Us” thinking which led to the eventual perception of viewing Jews as animals to be treated differently and not trusted in certain sectors.

Bullbars, your comments are disgraceful.

They aren’t disgraceful, just you’re blinkered and unwavering support of the Jewish state of Israel stops you from disseminating fact from personal ties.

There is no comparison between what the Nazis did and the excessive and often criminal response of Israel to Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.

Two points in this statement:

1. There are direct comparisons of Nazi treatment of Jews (and others, as I originally highlighted) and with Israeli Government Policies dating from the formation of Israel right up to this very moment. As I’ve highlighted above; there is a direct correlation between the treatment of Palestinians since the inception of the Jewish state and the unjust rules brought in against the Jewish people during the interwar years.

2. The way you just assume Palestinians are all terrorists is a sickening comment. It’s obvious that you’ve never been through the Israeli state to see these human rights abuses in action on a daily basis from the lowest levels up & you clearly have little understanding of what goes on in the Israel.

Purple, you shouldn't let idiots like Bullbars wind you up,

The keyboard warrior troll is in full flow with childish personal abuse. Pathetic.

and if you do you shouldn't qualify in any way the dismissal of her obscenity.

So to add to the personal abuse above you’ve made the leap to assume because I mentioned the wrongs against homosexuality, I in turn must be an effeminate homosexual. Congratulations you can now add homophobic bigotry to your past posting history of racial and religious bigotry.

There is no comparison whatsoever with what the Israelis feel they must do for sheer survival compared with the deliberate and systematic genocide by the Nazis.

Sheer survival? Israel is a nuclear power backed by the U.S.A. and takes place in mass human rights abuses daily yet they are the ones struggling to survive.

As a staunch bigoted unionist you’ve followed the party line to a T. As the staunch republicans identified with the Palestinians fight, the unionist in you can’t figure out right from wrong but must assume the “Enemy of my enemy must be my friend”. Do you chat to Willie Frazer much?

And that's not just a numbers game, even if the numbers were equal there would still be no comparison.

Never have I stated the numbers were equal, but your statement that if the numbers were equal, there would be no comparison. So Israel could murder the same amount of people yet because they are Jews that died the crime is in some way lesser? Bizarre, but highlights your bigoted and inhumane thought process.

These odious comparisons remind of when Saint Mary McAleese compared unionists to Nazis.

The remarks were well reported as being insensitive and could have been put better, nobody on either side disagreed. The crux of the matter was that both communities had prevalent misconceptions about the other instilled in them since childhood. Again similar to Nazi dehumanizing of Jews through the 1920’s-1930’s. Also similar to the racial inequalities that existed in the U.S.A. at that time. Children don’t grow up automatically hating a people due to creed or ethnicity that is instilled from a young age and hatred/distrust is nurtured.

You've probably heard of Godwin's law - the fact that as a blog gets longer and longer the probability of reference to the Nazis approaches one, well I'll give you Duke's Law - it seems the same holds these days for a reference to gays.

You don’t understand Godwins law. If we were discussing water meter protests and I somehow equated the government monitoring my water usage to the anti-Jewish decrees you might have had a point but as usual, you don’t.
 
Gets Popcorn
My comments weren't thrown in as some sort of forum hand grenade. My work takes me through different regions and recently worked in both Israel and Germany in close succession. It was poignant to notice the similar struggles of two peoples but to note one has now become the tyrant in a reversal of part of their own history, hence my comment they haven't learned much themselves. A group were wronged and terrorised along side them at the same time yet they used the same hatred to further persecute.
 
Bullbars so many misunderstandings of my position and so many nonsenses of your own that I will only highlight a few.

I had no idea at all of your sexuality or gender and, in keeping with the zeitgeist, frankly I do not give a damn. Given this lack of knowledge I though the more politically correct pronoun was she but of course to someone hypersensitive on the point nothing will suffice.

I was not saying this thread is an example of Godwin's law (as you say that would be ridiculous). But by the third post the gay thing was invoked (by yourself) and I was simply musing are we going to get to the stage were Duke's Law holds.

Didn't say you were making a numbers point. But I am. Nazi ideology was pure evil, Israelis are in a permanent role of self defence. On motives alone there is no comparison whilst on execution, well, you know the numbers. Name me one of the many Israeli/Arab conflicts which Israel "started".

I note your long ramble on the descent of Nazi Germany into what RTE describes (rightly) as the greatest crime in history against humanity. Are you in some way trying to contextualise that crime with a view to showing that they were no worse than the current Israelis? Please say that isn't so.
 
Bullbars so many misunderstandings of my position and so many nonsenses of your own that I will only highlight a few.
So many? No, just facts that you don’t like.

Given this lack of knowledge I though the more politically correct pronoun was she but of course to someone hypersensitive on the point nothing will suffice.
Equally pathetic, claim ignorance and throw in another slight. You’re on a roll.

I was not saying this thread is an example of Godwin's law (as you say that would be ridiculous). But by the third post the gay thing was invoked (by yourself) and I was simply musing are we going to get to the stage were Duke's Law holds.


And I again have to highlight your understanding of Godwins law, and in-turn ‘dukes law’ are flawed. If I had stated that the treatment of the Jews was akin to treatment of homosexuals in Timbuktu then your perverted version of Godwins law would ring true as they are in no way related.

What I was highlighting was the fact that Israel and the wider Jewish community commemorate the persecution of their own people whilst continued to deny the same commemoration of those who suffered alongside them and who’s persecution continued after the war. Homosexuals that survived the camps were not liberated and facilitated in returning home like the mass Jewish populations but were moved to Allied forces internment camps and detained there indefinitely.

Didn't say you were making a numbers point. But I am. Nazi ideology was pure evil, Israelis are in a permanent role of self defence. On motives alone there is no comparison whilst on execution, well, you know the numbers. Name me one of the many Israeli/Arab conflicts which Israel "started".

The numbers point you made was ridiculous as you stated that even if they were equal, the persecution of the Jews would be worse for obvious bizarre reasoning.

Getting in to a numbers discussion is a pointless discussion if you cannot comprehend that human rights violations and state sponsored terrorism without reproach is wrong.

The number of deaths the Nazi’s reached toward the end of the war was a cover up exercise and a desperately inhumane one at that. Nazi idealogy and Israel’s governments treatment of Palestinian people are equally hideous.

Permanent role of defence is laughably stupid and ill-informed. The state of Israel is backed by a military force so advanced and backed by a world super power that nothing in the region could ever take over. Trying to compare them as equal groups is nothing short of idiotic. Israel, like the british government during the conflict in Northern Ireland, like the Pro-Apartheid governments in South Africa – have the power to neutralize the situation but choose not to as they are solely fixated on capitulation of their opposition.

Similar traits with each government –

1. Dehumanise the others, continuous constraining rules on movement/education/enterprise/employment/religious rights’

2. Vague and ambiguous rules designed to suit one side of the population when it suits and persecute the other conveniently

3. Label ever one of them as terrorists. As soon as the oppressed fight back, publicise it and use state controlled media and publications to portray one sided agenda. Denial of representation via media is common.

4. Uprooting of existing settlements and rehousing their own in to historically and traditionally indigenous areas in attempts to break up social and economic group strength.

5. Creation of holding areas that the persecuted can live in. All following form, these were areas deprived of utilities and poor ground to ensure self-sufficiency through agriculture or mineral harvesting was not possible.

6. When (not ‘if’) they stage an inevitable fight back against oppression, they grin gleefully as they’ve played in to the governments hands and brutal crack downs can be deployed in the name of fighting terrorists. Scale of deployment, tactics and time lines are beyond questioning.

I note your long ramble on the descent of Nazi Germany into what RTE describes (rightly) as the greatest crime in history against humanity. Are you in some way trying to contextualise that crime with a view to showing that they were no worse than the current Israelis? Please say that isn't so.

Again a typical response of a steadfast supporter of Israel. Portray those who speak against Israel as a Holocaust denier and tar them with trying to minimise the Holocaust.

Israel’s inexcusable party line - “We’re breaching human rights and trotting on a people that we ensure never prosper or rise above their standing in our nation but that’s nothing compared to what the Nazi’s did to us”. As if it is some sort of excuse to permit their continued daily crimes. Easy they forget they were on the receiving end previously.

Purple stated that there is no comparison with what the Nazi’s did to the Jews, but a cursory search proves that Israel took some of the Jewish Decree rules and used them against another race.
 
This is fun.

Purple stated that there is no comparison with what the Nazi’s did to the Jews, but a cursory search proves that Israel took some of the Jewish Decree rules and used them against another race.

I don't know nuffin' about this Decree rules stuff but without even Googling I am prepared to wager that, as Purple asserts, there is no comparison with mass murder in gas chambers, but I am open to be corrected.

You mention that Israel has the Bomb. So why, given their lust for Palestinian blood, have they not used it? Okay silly point but what about these rhetorical questions: What would Hamas do if they had a Bomb? Hizbollah? Iran? Isis? The Taliban?. Admittedly some of these, if they had ony the one Bomb, would use it against fellow islamists but if they had two Israel would surely be next.
 
This is fun.
Learning is meant to be fun, so lets press on.

I don't know nuffin' about this Decree rules stuff
The decrees were various rules brought in that persecuted the Jewish community and facilitated the transfer of jobs and wealth from the Jews to indigenous Germans. It eased the German people in to gradually believing that the Jews were actually a sub class race and not on par with the Aryan race. This was essential in later years when they needed to enslave the Jews. These types of laws were/are used against a segment of the populace - like in Northern Ireland / South Africa / Israel - to break them and try to move them to "their own lands" ie. poorer ghetto's and ill-prepared housing locations in the hope they'll give up and leave altogether. Many Jews left Europe prior to the Second world war, this again *unfortunately played in to the hands of the Nazi leaders. *(Not unfortunate that they managed to escape but it was fuel for the Nazis assume this was a social benefit and they should keept going down this road)

but without even Googling I am prepared to wager that, as Purple asserts, there is no comparison with mass murder in gas chambers, but I am open to be corrected.
This is the problem. Jews can only equate the massacre of their people 70 -80 years ago to minimise their own similar criminal actions today. The successive Jewish governments of Israel have terrorised a people since the inception of their state. The gassing of the Jews took a massive and unforeseen turn when it became clear to the Nazi leaders during the war that their secret was about to be unfurled if they didn't undertake a massive cover up. It was unforeseen and German forces were so unprepared that the extermination camps were running out of ammunition and gas and executions "success" rates resulted in soldiers having to line people up and use one bullet to execute 5-10 people each time. In the end when the camps were on the brink of being discovered German guards simply burned wooden huts knowing the sick inside were too weak to escape. The mass executions weren't an initial bloodlust but a scramble by a few desperate criminals to cover up what they had been up to.

In actual fact the gassing mechanism for disposing of the Jews was only drafted in because the German Soldiers did not have a genuine blood lust for these people. Early execution squads were failing due to the soldiers not being able to stomach the level of killing they had to carry out in such close quarters. Herding people in to rooms and having Jewish orderlies ferry the dead and dying bodies from chambers to incinerator blocks meant that the camp guards weren't face to face with their victims. They saw it as a simple process factory line.

Purples statement of "They said never again but of course it did happen again and will happen again" is ironic as it is the Jewish state that haven't learned a thing. They held the same contempt and spewed the same vitriolic nonsense at a group that suffered along side them and have tortured a segment of a population that had no voice when their lands were given to the Jews after the war since the foundation of their state.

"Modern" Societies and "civilised"governments I named couldn't just wipe these people out as (A) - they know full well that they wouldn't get away with that level of bloodshed on the world stage (B) The world is a smaller place in 2015 than 1944 / 1945, when the true numbers were starting to be revealed. One picture of genocide today can go around the world in minutes via social media.(C) They know that would be the death-knell for their Jewish "utopia". (D) This would lead to retribution attacks against Jewish communities worldwide. (E) This sort of thing does happen in Africa regularly, albeit not on the same scale, but due to the western worlds

You mention that Israel has the Bomb. So why, given their lust for Palestinian blood, have they not used it? Okay silly point but what about these rhetorical questions: What would Hamas do if they had a Bomb? Hizbollah? Iran? Isis? The Taliban?. Admittedly some of these, if they had ony the one Bomb, would use it against fellow islamists but if they had two Israel would surely be next.

I have no doubt that Hamas would have that bomb in Israeli Jewish territory within 5 minutes of flipping through the instruction book that was taped to the side.
That isn't the point here. Never should it be permitted to excuse the crimes of one fanatical faith because of what the other "might"do if the roles are reversed. You've attempted this line before and its a ridiculous argument. Why not compare Jewish Terrorist groups against Muslim terrorist groups? -because that is not how one measures civilised society. Palestinians are looking for an equal voice. Israel stymies that without fail every time and continues to breach human rights daily.

Your assumption again that Palestine simply equates to Hamas/terrorists, falls in line with your resolute bigoted thinking. It's easy to tarnish them with the same "Muslim extremist". It may come as a bitter surprise to those like you but not Muslims are terrorists. Are Christian Palestinians Muslim terrorists as well? Not all Catholics seek retribution against protestants. Even Mandela managed to put terrorism aside and give the indigenous South Africans a path toward equal status. The problem is Israel continually shackles Palestinian hands in the morning and then cries that they refuse to shake hands in the afternoon. As has been repeated historically, this drives a few more towards the fanatical side, playing in to Israels hands and the merry go round continues.
 
Bullbars I was trying to put my finger on what exactly it was in your meanderings that was disturbing me.

I knew it wasn't your demonization of Israel, I come to expect that of Irish armchair geo-politicians.

No, it was your part exoneration of the Nazis, indeed a sort of Holocasut denial but of a most bizarre kind. Take the following quote:
The mass executions weren't an initial bloodlust but a scramble by a few desperate criminals to cover up what they had been up to.
I really do not know what to make of this. So the Holocaust was a tiny gang trying to cover up their crimes. For a start that was not a very successful strategy. But here is were the H-denial comes in. Most objective people accept the Nazis at their word - they were embarked on the Final Solution to the Jewish question. This involved the extermination of that race. To postulate that they only meant to kill a handful and then lost the run of themselves in an attempt to cover up beggars belief. I can now see how you can form such a grotesque view of the current Israeli situation.
 
..that was disturbing me. .
The truth does hurt when you refuse to accept it.

I knew it wasn't your demonization of Israel, .
Israel have done that themselves. Their crimes are there for you to verify yourself but choose to ignore it.

No, it was your part exoneration of the Nazis, indeed a sort of Holocasut denial but of a most bizarre kind.

As I predicted and true to form, you have to resort to attempting to portray me as some sort of Nazi apologist trying to minimise what they had done. Not once have I ever even hinted at that. Keep skirting around what I’ve said with strawman obtuse contortion and have another go again.

I simply, (given your uptake levels) highlighted how the Nazi’s didn’t just wake up one morning and start firing up incinerators to mass murder Jews and other undesirables. The hateful crimes against the Jews were a long term gradual process. As I showed it started up to a decade earlier by gradual removal of human rights. The resulting mass murders were made in a desperate attempt to cover up the slave camps they had been operating as the allies closed in. The Nazi’s had been gassing Jews/gypsies/Roma/Russians etc. from the outset but in much lower numbers. The sick, mentally ill, elderly and infirmed were unable to be used as slaves so were disposed of in relatively low numbers in the early war years. The same way as some may see a workhorse or greyhound, once their working capability is gone, they are dispatched.

I really do not know what to make of this. .

I know..learning is fun but it can be hard.

So the Holocaust was a tiny gang trying to cover up their crimes .

Tiny? No, never said that. Do try to keep up. Relatively small number of decision makers when compared to the entire Nazi military and civilian population. The SS Totenkopf was one such “specialist unit” that took care of some of the ugliest and surreal massacres. Their training again was a gradual process of being trained to dehumanise their victims and graduate through a number of brutal regime camps.


For a start that was not a very successful strategy.

Yes…As I said in post #13 – a desperate scramble to cover up what they’d been doing. Not something they thought through as the Nazi leadership were gone beyond madness by that stage and some refused to accept defeat was on the horizon even as the allied guns could be heard in Berlin.

But here is were the H-denial comes in. .

It doesn’t come in, you introduce it as a futile and pathetic come back. You would have fit in well in 1944 Nazi leadership with these sort of answers.

Most objective people accept the Nazis at their word - they were embarked on the Final Solution to the Jewish question. This involved the extermination of that race.

The Nazi’s never envisioned having to gas a entire race. As I said early on, they only represented 1% of the german population in the early 1930’s as the Nazis came to power. At that time persecution to and stripping rights to gain Jews material possetions was their aim. The German populace was nowhere near organising mass death camps at that time and had no desire to. To state otherwise shows you have no knowledge of the subject.

To postulate that they only meant to kill a handful and then lost the run of themselves in an attempt to cover up beggars belief.
Postulate, no, facts are there for themelves. It does beggar belief but a lot of what went on at that time truly beggars belief.

I can now see how you can form such a grotesque view of the current Israeli situation.

Its pathetic to keep coming back here and not be able to accept your utopia of terror took inspiration from the same laws that were used to oppress their people and use it against another. Your grasp of right and wrong is what is grotesque, but from your ilk, not surprising.
 
So you are sticking by your version that the Holocaust started off with very humble aspirations and is in large part due to an attempt to cover up what was relatively small to begin with. Sort of as if I knocked down my neighbour's dog (deliberately) and then destroyed the whole neighbourhood to try and cover it up.

Well it's a theory, but I am still not sure whether you arguing that this lessens the moral culpability, indeed to the point were they were essentially innocents at heart compared to the vile Israelis.
 
So you are sticking by your version that the Holocaust started off with very humble aspirations .
Not my version, historys. The numbers are plainly obvious but as you can’t argue this you haven’t mentioned it in you’re head in the sand antics.

I’ve pointed out the glaring facts that you can’t argue and engage in nonsensicle leaps of imagination time after time.

and is in large part due to an attempt to cover up what was relatively small to begin with.

Yes, you seem to be making sense now. It was also in part due to the huge numbers that were being shipped in by rail as they conquered new territories, Some French gladly gave up Jews to try and save their own skin. Hungary. Poland, Russia were other countries that gave the Nazi access to slave labour.
Edit: The total number eventually detained and murdered compared to the original 500,000 population of Germany is proof of this practice.

Sort of as if I knocked down my neighbour's dog (deliberately) and then destroyed the whole neighbourhood to try and cover it up. .

Again no. Not even remotely. Just like your flawed thinking of Godwins/Dukes law you’ve missed the meaning of it entirely.

Well it's a theory, .

Nope. But don’t let facts get in the way of bigotry.

but I am still not sure whether you arguing that this lessens the moral culpability, indeed to the point were they were essentially innocents at heart compared to the vile Israelis.

Never said it did, you know this of course but can't help yourself. Again another idiotic leap to think Ive ever attempted to lessens Nazi Crimes or portray them as innocents compared to Israel. Yet your staunch inability to take cognisance of what really went on and goes on is a sickening indictment of your own moral compass
 
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The Haavara Agreement of 1933 is undeniable proof that the mass execution of Jews was not the Nazis original intent. The Nazi economic ministry made a deal with Zionists to facilitate the movement of Jews out of Germany to Palestine lands. In return the Germans would "tax"the Jews leaving a hefty price for their trouble.

I'm sure you'll stick your fingers in your ears and deny this as well though.
 
Bullbars, I think I'm sorted now.

I thought you were kinda excusing those fine catholic Bavarian folk. Not so, you were simply giving a history lesson on how the descent to the greatest evil in World history didn't happen overnight.

I can see from your clarifications that you have the same abhorrence as the rest of us of the deliberate genocide of millions of civilians for no strategic purpose other than extermination for its own sake. This is irrespective of the fact that the perpetrators stumbled towards those depths.
 
I thought you were kinda excusing those fine catholic Bavarian folk..

Majority of Nazi's were Lutheran or Protestant. In fact Hitler attempted to unify all protestant/ lutheran sects as one singular Nazi church. Are you just relapsing to auto pilot equating the bad guys as Catholics?
 
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