i'm one of the unfortunate 81 irish investors who invested in the above deal and am trying to contact any of the other 80 investors. we were supposed to get our currency differential back but this is not looking likely now and kms wont return calls. if anyone out there would like to pm me i will give them my details and if a bunch of us get together we would have a better chance of sorting this out.
KMS New York Apt Fall out
- Thread starter dow jones
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O
OverseasCafe
Guest
Sorry, pardon my ignorance here but what exactly does the 'above deal' refer to?
sorry i should have made that clear! about 2 years ago kms commercial in dublin sold 81 apts in a development in mid town mahattan taking deposits of over $100,000 from some investors. then 18 months later they pull the plug blaming the ny developer giving everyone back their money. not very satisfactory on a number of levels, then add the 20% fall in the dollar and people are down 20k. i'm trying to contact some of the other 80 investors to see how we should handle this.. hope that clears it up
O
OverseasCafe
Guest
Is this [broken link removed] the one to which you refer?
If so it would appear that KMS didn't really do their due diligence all that well, i.e. never read the contract, and were outsmarted by the developer. Apart from that I'm not sure that you've much of a case against them. Unless, of course, there has been something darker going on in the background that we don't know about.
Currency losses/gains are entirely at the risk of the investor. Would you have the same complaints if you had seen a 20% gain in the currency? If not then I can't see where your case lies. Capital gains are not a given. Again, if there was capital depreciation in the area over the period of the investment would you be rushing to pay it back to the developer?
If so it would appear that KMS didn't really do their due diligence all that well, i.e. never read the contract, and were outsmarted by the developer. Apart from that I'm not sure that you've much of a case against them. Unless, of course, there has been something darker going on in the background that we don't know about.
Currency losses/gains are entirely at the risk of the investor. Would you have the same complaints if you had seen a 20% gain in the currency? If not then I can't see where your case lies. Capital gains are not a given. Again, if there was capital depreciation in the area over the period of the investment would you be rushing to pay it back to the developer?
Hang on - look at what the OP posted
and look at the report from the Irish Times "The Irish buyers were informed that their 15 per cent deposits will be refunded, plus an extra amount to cover the currency difference, since the dollar was around 20 per cent stronger when they booked them two years ago" [[broken link removed]]
If KMS have agreed to pay an extra amount above deposits to cover the currency differential, but now back out of it, then pressure from all affected investors could produce a result.
To the OP - have you contacted BCM, who are supposed to be acting for you, and asked them what, if any, redress you have against Carlisle or KMS?
BTW I know of at least one other Manhattan development by Carlisle that had a similar clause in it.
and look at the report from the Irish Times "The Irish buyers were informed that their 15 per cent deposits will be refunded, plus an extra amount to cover the currency difference, since the dollar was around 20 per cent stronger when they booked them two years ago" [[broken link removed]]
If KMS have agreed to pay an extra amount above deposits to cover the currency differential, but now back out of it, then pressure from all affected investors could produce a result.
To the OP - have you contacted BCM, who are supposed to be acting for you, and asked them what, if any, redress you have against Carlisle or KMS?
BTW I know of at least one other Manhattan development by Carlisle that had a similar clause in it.
If KMS are not returning your calls then you need to change approach - either call into their offices or write a letter sending it registered post and request a reply by a certain date. If that fails then you need to take it to a more public forum like Joe Duffy or the newspapers (i'd say the Sindo would be your best bet as Shane Ross might like that kind of thing).
Again, have you contacted BCM to advise you of your rights in this case? BCM were supposed to be working for you as I presume you paid them a fee as part of the deal?
C
cotton eye
Guest
Is this stated clearly in your contract?
probably not, the contract was a bit like the lisbon treaty.
C
cotton eye
Guest
You should have voted 'NO' then
G
Guest117
Guest
Have you thought about going to Joe Duffy or the papers to try and apply some public pressure to kms and also round up other investors at same time.
It is clear that any costs incurred in trying to follow this will be best shared
It is clear that any costs incurred in trying to follow this will be best shared
I don't see any point in taking this further if it is not in the contract. Why would KMS pay it out of their own pocket. (I assume KMS are one of the well know auctionering firms) Just because the Irish times says they said they will give a refund does not mean they will. Do estate agents refund people who bought houses in the last year in Ireland that are now worth less. OP - it's time to read the contract now or get legal advice which will incur further costs.
My guess is that there is nothing in the contract that obliges the agent to refund the currency differential in this instance so the OP probably doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.
However, if the agent informed a number of investors that they would refund the currency difference, and then go back on their word, then the OP is doing the right thing trying to get in touch with other people in the same boat and maybe try to publically shame the agent into honouring their promise.
My gut feeling is that it will be a hard sell in the public domain as "rich" overseas investors do not immediately garner the public's sympathy so you might be better off going down the Shane Ross "indignant capitalist" route rather than the Joe Duffy "man of the people" route.
Anyway, just my two cents
However, if the agent informed a number of investors that they would refund the currency difference, and then go back on their word, then the OP is doing the right thing trying to get in touch with other people in the same boat and maybe try to publically shame the agent into honouring their promise.
My gut feeling is that it will be a hard sell in the public domain as "rich" overseas investors do not immediately garner the public's sympathy so you might be better off going down the Shane Ross "indignant capitalist" route rather than the Joe Duffy "man of the people" route.
Anyway, just my two cents
9
9980Dublin
Guest
I'm another of the unfortunate investors in the KMS scheme.
Like OP, I was not expecting KMS to indemnify me against forex losses. Cathal McGinley (the KMS boss) committed (a number of times) to making good the losses on Forex, I'm assuming in order to protect his company's reputation and on the basis that he felt that KMS should have ensured the contract was airtight. Investors will all have emails to that effect.
Obviously, if the possibility of such an outcome was indicated in the first place, investors could have easily hedged the Forex risk.
Interesting that JD Carlisle (his developer/builder) has done this in another New York development too. I also notice that investors in the KMS / Cathal McGinley led Fitzpatricks Hotel development "got their money back" too.
The issue now is that having made the committment there has been no communication from KMS or Cathal McGinley whatsoever. All calls go unreturned and all messages go unanswered. If they have decided to change their minds and not refund the difference, then at least have the decency to be straight with investors (who they were happy to be decent to before contracts were signed) and tell them. The really great thing about sites and threads like this is that potential investors can be warned about the pitfalls of these transactions and what sort of 'service' they can expect from (some) agents if things do go wrong.
Like OP, I was not expecting KMS to indemnify me against forex losses. Cathal McGinley (the KMS boss) committed (a number of times) to making good the losses on Forex, I'm assuming in order to protect his company's reputation and on the basis that he felt that KMS should have ensured the contract was airtight. Investors will all have emails to that effect.
Obviously, if the possibility of such an outcome was indicated in the first place, investors could have easily hedged the Forex risk.
Interesting that JD Carlisle (his developer/builder) has done this in another New York development too. I also notice that investors in the KMS / Cathal McGinley led Fitzpatricks Hotel development "got their money back" too.
The issue now is that having made the committment there has been no communication from KMS or Cathal McGinley whatsoever. All calls go unreturned and all messages go unanswered. If they have decided to change their minds and not refund the difference, then at least have the decency to be straight with investors (who they were happy to be decent to before contracts were signed) and tell them. The really great thing about sites and threads like this is that potential investors can be warned about the pitfalls of these transactions and what sort of 'service' they can expect from (some) agents if things do go wrong.
N
No Big Apple
Guest
I am also one of the 81 investors with KMS in this Manhattan development. KMS sent the commitment to refund the currency difference to me and my wife, in writing. And now they are refusing to answer calls. They did not get as much flak as they should have back in March on account of this promise. And now they are trying to avoid paying it.
I would welcome a group of investors getting together to take action to ensure KMS honour their contracted obligations.
I would welcome a group of investors getting together to take action to ensure KMS honour their contracted obligations.
Complainer
Registered User
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Do they have enough assets to make it worth while going to court? You can't get blood out of a stone.
It is not clear that the 'committment' to refund currency differences forms part of the 'contracted obligations' of KMS. Take legal advice.