Auschwitz

[Purple]

I’m not sure if there is intent in your misunderstanding or if you genuinely misread what was posted.
You posted that the exclusion of homosexuals and the refusal to acknowledge the mass murder of gay people by the Nazis was at the behest of Jewish people/groups;

The commemoration plaque at Dachau was also to be inclusive of all those who suffered in the camps except the Jewish participants kicked off about homosexuals being represented along side them. Seems they haven't learned much themselves.

Sol28 corrected you;

The same thing exists in Auschwitz - There are memorials to all the various groups that died in the camp, but the homosexuals. Its notably absent - its because the current polish regime is so anti-gay - that modern day politics glosses over the past atrocities.

You then accused me of bias and referred to his post as if he was correcting me.

Why not follow the typical Jewish supporter’s line and call Sol28 an anti-semite / Jew hater etc. Your sarcasm just reaffirms the usual rhetoric spouted by the staunch blinkered Jewish groups; negative comments can only come from those who hate us. Sol28’s post directly and correctly points blame at the Polish Government but that still wasn’t good enough for you.

That alone discouraged me from reading the rest of your posts but I am intrigued by your limited and rather one-eyed knowledge of the history of the genocide and the Nazis.

What are your views on the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, specifically around the decision of the Arab countries to attack at the moment the League of Nations ceased to exist and the UN took over its role?

What are your views of the early Zionist movement, specifically the homesteading by Jewish families, funded by European and American Jews, and the impact it had on Arab and Palestinian population growth in what is now Israel up to the 1920’s.
What are your views on the treatment of homosexuals in Hamas controlled areas? How do you think it equates with the treatment of homosexuals in Israel?

What is your view on the culpability of Jordan, specifically the actions of the Hashemite tribe, during the patrician of trans-Jordan? Do you think the tens of thousands of Jews who lost their houses and lands during that period, jews who had lived there for over 2000 years, should get them back?

I have posted before that the domination of Israel by far-right religious conservative politicians is a tragedy for both Israelis and Palestinians. I am an atheist and a social liberal. I am in favour of a two state solution. I believe that the current Israeli government does not want peace and is of the same mould as the neo-con’s in America. They are doing untold damage to the Palestinian people. The only groups doing more harm now are HAMAS and Hezbollah. The only countries that care less about the Palestinians are all of the other Arab and Persian countries in the region. Just like the Kurds the Palestinians are pawns in a larger game.
Both sides are badly lead and seem to be willingly and wilfully self-destructive (just like Northern Ireland was). A plague on all of their houses.

All of the above not withstanding any assertion that the Arab-Israeli-Palestinian conflict is comparable with the Nazi genocide is ridiculous.


The only event since 1945 that has strong and direct comparisons with the genocide in how it was planned, how the education system and media were used to firstly blame, then exclude, then dehumanise a minority and finally how that minority was murdered at a scale and pace that exceeded the Nazi genocide took place just 100 days in 1994 and led to the biggest war since the second world war, a war most people don’t even know took place.

When I hear so many Irish people get so worked up about the injustices faced by, and oppression of, the Palestinians and yet those same people know almost nothing about larger conflicts and must greater oppression around the world, or within the same region, I have to wonder if there isn’t some element of anti-Semitism in there with many of them.

 

[bullbars]

I’m not sure if there is intent in your misunderstanding or if you genuinely misread what was posted. You posted that the exclusion of homosexuals and the refusal to acknowledge the mass murder of gay people by the Nazis was at the behest of Jewish people/groups;

It was and still is opposed in some cases, Yad Vashem were notorious for their interference. Even down to having individual memorials being placed too close to Jewish memorials.

Sol28 corrected you; ;

No – He wrote about Auschwitz, in Poland – I referred to Dachau, in Germany. In any case, neither memorial should have been forced to exclude one group that suffered the same fate.

You then accused me of bias and referred to his post as if he was correcting me.

The “You must blame the Jews” was confusingly contrary to Sol28’s direct statement that it was the Polish Government stance on the issue.

That alone discouraged me from reading the rest of your posts but I am intrigued by your limited and rather one-eyed knowledge of the history of the genocide and the Nazis.

Dispute what you want I’ve proved it isn’t ‘limited’. I’ve shown the Holocaust wasn’t an overnight decision once the Nazi’s took power. It was a gradual process and was fuelled as the Reich expanded during the war. Some may say this was inevitable as they always sought to expand their borders for living space and create a lower “caste” of slave labour.

The numbers were exacerbated as the allies gained a foothold in europe and were advancing on their borders. This was well documented as the camp guards would either (A) force the camp populace to relocate to other camps if allied forces were close to discovering them or (B) if it was too late attempt crude mass murder methods such as locking them in rail cars to silence their evidence. Also the fact that the Nazis dug up the corpses of those they had not incinerated, was another scramble to hide the numbers they had dispatched previously.

What are your views on the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, specifically around the decision of the Arab countries to attack at the moment the League of Nations ceased to exist and the UN took over its role? .

The war in ’48 was always in the making as soon as the British began pulling out and left what was clearly going to be a tinder box situation. The League of Nations were all bark with no bite and the U.N., in their infancy, were (A) Mainly concerned with a new Europe & the early growing distrust between the Soviet Union and the rest of the Allies (B) Never, given the developments of the previous few years, going to start further oppression of the Jewish people returning to what many saw as “their homeland”. The Jews were desperate for the British to remain and facilitate some sort of law and order. The Arab support given to German occupation in North Africa should have been a glaring red flag for the tension that would spill over in the region.

What are your views of the early Zionist movement, specifically the homesteading by Jewish families, funded by European and American Jews, and the impact it had on Arab and Palestinian population growth in what is now Israel up to the 1920’s.

What are your views on the treatment of homosexuals in Hamas controlled areas? How do you think it equates with the treatment of homosexuals in Israel?

I have no doubt the freedoms (I’m not sure how to what degree) Israeli Homosexuals experience are worlds apart from what Hamas would condone in that regard. My point on homsexuals was that this was the one group that suffered along with the Jews during the Holocaust that they protested to being commemorated alongside. Given the point about learning from history, a people so wronged at that time should not be, to this day in some cases, furthering needless and unwarranted detriment of another people.

What is your view on the culpability of Jordan, specifically the actions of the Hashemite tribe, during the patrician of trans-Jordan? Do you think the tens of thousands of Jews who lost their houses and lands during that period, jews who had lived there for over 2000 years, should get them back?

I have posted before that the domination of Israel by far-right religious conservative politicians is a tragedy for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Whole heartedly agree. As I’d said a few posts above, it’s an unfortunate merry-go-round. Each playing in to each other’s hands.

I am in favour of a two state solution.

Again, agreed but the problem now is that the Palestinian lands as they stand are woefully devoid of the same utilities and basic standards compared to Jewish controlled areas. Two state solution would solve this but Israel would have to facilitate this and that’s never going to be on the table.

I believe that the current Israeli government does not want peace and is of the same mould as the neo-con’s in America. They are doing untold damage to the Palestinian people. The only groups doing more harm now are HAMAS and Hezbollah. The only countries that care less about the Palestinians are all of the other Arab and Persian countries in the region.

HAMAS/Hezbollah etc. are all made possible and fuelled by Israel, similar to our own history:

For example; If a Jew commits a crime and is caught, he faces a sentence of 5 years with some remission in a relatively comfortable cell and the media are gagged if this person was from a “respectable” lineage. If a Palestinian commits the same crime, his house is bulldozed and if other extended family live in houses connected, they are also razed. The sentence is 10 years and no remission and future “crimes” whilst incarcerated are also added to the sentence. The demolition works are publicised and are celebrated as a success via controlled media. The indigenous people have no recourse against the government so the ranks of the terrorist swell.

Just like the Kurds the Palestinians are pawns in a larger game.

Agreed. I’ve seen a lot of Iraq as well lately and the current road the US are going down of supplying weapons to the Peshmerga today to avoid another redeployment to fix the mess, seems they haven’t learned much from their “charity” Afghanistan in the 80’s.

Both sides are badly lead and seem to be willingly and wilfully self-destructive (just like Northern Ireland was). A plague on all of their houses.

The trouble is though, Israel know they cannot be destroyed, there is no need for them to take the high road as it offers them no incentive.

All of the above not withstanding any assertion that the Arab-Israeli-Palestinian conflict is comparable with the Nazi genocide is ridiculous.

The abuse of human rights and crimes against humanity are very similar. The origins of the holocaust lay in the gradual stripping of human rights, assests and freedoms beginning in the 1930’s, a decade before the mass murders were even on the cards.

Right Wing MP Ayelet Shaked is a prime example of the direct comparisons between Nazi propaganda against Jews and the same methods/sound bites being thrown against Palestinians.
· Label them all terrorists
· Dehumanise them by constant referral to them as animals
· Instill a mindset that their existence is solely to destroy all that is good
· Crimes against Israeli people exaggerated and embellished
· Instill a fear in what is different
· Convince the public in to thinking you are protecting them by punishing the others without warrant
· Ensure media is state controlled and propaganda is a one way street

Nazi Genocide was only achievable because of these same tactics, arbitrary laws and abuse of state power. This part of the campaign was essential in raising suspicions and fear, ensuring the populace would not speak out against their crimes. The exact same as happens in Israel.

Ayelet Shaked along with her lobby groups sit on puppet and showcase boards, feigning attempts to help educate and aid the lives of the Palestinian people yet, also control the constantly moving barriers and laws that stop them from taking up opportunities to better themselves.

Examples include; setting up and publicising education facilities yet arbitrary rules blocking movement knowing full well the candidates will never make it to the education centres on that day. Another victory so she can say, “we tried, they didn’t accept because they are only interested in terrorism”. She and her cohort are then vindicated.

The only event since 1945 that has strong and direct comparisons with the genocide in how it was planned, how the education system and media were used to firstly blame, then exclude, then dehumanise a minority and finally how that minority was murdered at a scale and pace that exceeded the Nazi genocide took place just 100 days in 1994 and led to the biggest war since the second world war, a war most people don’t even know took place.

Yes, but what increases shock and potentially, memory, regarding that particular conflict was the short period in which the conflict escalated to that level of viciousness and inhumanity.

The conflicts on-going through the African continent have been on-going for decades and the cumulative victims possibly similar yet due to lack of interest from first World Governments they rage on with momentum swinging back and forth over generations. The level of depravity would be shocking to most but are some just expecting that level of violence from those they still see as uncivilised and is that why we relate more to the Holocaust or the breakup of Yugoslavia?

When I hear so many Irish people get so worked up about the injustices faced by, and oppression of, the Palestinians and yet those same people know almost nothing about larger conflicts and must greater oppression around the world, or within the same region, I have to wonder if there isn’t some element of anti-Semitism in there with many of them.

Anti-Semitism is the easy excuse. Israel is a powerful civilised, first world nation that still practices apartheid rule without recourse. Why? Because they are backed by the US and as long as they keep their crimes within the "anti-terrorism" bracket, that won't change.

Successive Israeli Governments have the benefit of hindsight and still follow the same route of persecution that they themselves faced not long ago. They openly, unapologetically and stedfastly supported a similar Apartheid South Africa State regime and to this day carry out the same atrocities. The world has matured yet Israel still plays the school yard bully.

 

[Purple]

Successive Israeli Governments have the benefit of hindsight and still follow the same route of persecution that they themselves faced not long ago. They openly, unapologetically and stedfastly supported a similar Apartheid South Africa State regime and to this day carry out the same atrocities. The world has matured yet Israel still plays the school yard bully.

Your posts are markedly lacking in critical comment about the leadership of the Palestinians. They are like the IRA of the 1970's in the North; they are not interested in a negotiated solution. They have and will undermine any and all attempts to come to a two state solution. Just look at the actions of the murdering embezzler Arafat; within a year of the setting up of the Palestinian Authority he was using the guns provided to his police by the Israelis to attack the Israelis. At least his wife got to live in their house on Lake Geneva with the estimated one billion dollars he stole from his own people.
I have no respect for the Israeli government or the racist zealot lunatics that support them but the leadership of the Palestinians is far worse; more extremist, more oppressive, more violent, more willing to kill innocent people to further their extremist political and religious aims.

You are, I am sure, aware of the mass murder of gay men and women within Hamas controlled areas. Your comments on that topic were evasive to say the least.

On the issue of the exclusion of gay people from the memorial in Dachau, well, this thread is about Auschwitz. Sol28 brought the thread back on topic after you tried to bring it off topic in order to point out that a Jewish group had objected to the inclusion of gay people in the memorial in a different country. Do you think a Catholic or Protestant or Islamic group would not have made the same objection?
I question your historical knowledge because of your extreme bias and attempt to incorrectly present the current conflict in Israel as a "good guys V Bad guys" conflict. The reality is there are no good guys in any position of power on either side.
I fear and loath extremism of all shades. In that context I'd take Israel over any of the likely alternatives.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Bullbars, trying to understand your argument. Does this come close? The Holocaust only came at a very late stage. The early stages were mainly of discriminatory laws. Current Israeli laws are similar, so, and is this your point? "just you wait and see this will finish up as an Israeli counter Holocaust?".

I note in your answer to Purple that you recognise that Israel is "civilised" and I think given the barbaric nature of the forces ranged against them that explains a lot of what they are doing.

And another thing, of course all Palestinians are not terrorists and not all 30s' Germans were genocidaires but the fact is that Hamas, like the Nazis before them, got into power by popular will.

 

[Purple]

Whole heartedly agree. As I’d said a few posts above, it’s an unfortunate merry-go-round. Each playing in to each other’s hands.

You didn't give your views on the population shifts in Palestine from the 1860's to the 1920's. That's crucial to the whole debate as a very large population of the Arab population moved into the area during that period to work for the new Jewish population. In other words their claim to the region dates back no further than many Jews.

Yes, but what increases shock and potentially, memory, regarding that particular conflict was the short period in which the conflict escalated to that level of viciousness and inhumanity.

It built up over 3 years. That's hardly a short period. It was flagged by the UN on the ground but was covered up by the UN head of Peace Keeping, a man who later became general secretary of the UN. He should have been in prison.

The conflicts on-going through the African continent have been on-going for decades and the cumulative victims possibly similar yet due to lack of interest from first World Governments they rage on with momentum swinging back and forth over generations. The level of depravity would be shocking to most but are some just expecting that level of violence from those they still see as uncivilised and is that why we relate more to the Holocaust or the breakup of Yugoslavia?

Nonsense. The only reason we aren't interested is racism and a lack of self interest.
By the way, are you aware of the "African World War" and the nearly 5.5 million people who died in it? or are you only interested in a relatively minor conflict in the Middle East? If so why? Is it because one of the protagonists is a Jewish state?

 

[bullbars]

Your posts are markedly lacking in critical comment about the leadership of the Palestinians. They are like the IRA of the 1970's in the North; they are not interested in a negotiated solution. They have and will undermine any and all attempts to come to a two state solution. Just look at the actions of the murdering embezzler Arafat; within a year of the setting up of the Palestinian Authority he was using the guns provided to his police by the Israelis to attack the Israelis. At least his wife got to live in their house on Lake Geneva with the estimated one billion dollars he stole from his own people.

I’ve directly compared Hamas with the IRA. But Hamas, like the IRA, is constantly provided with new volunteers directly through the actions of the state of Israel. Israel knows this but it suits them to have the terrorists rather than accept capitulation to negotiate and come to a peace agreement.

I have no respect for the Israeli government or the racist zealot lunatics that support them but the leadership of the Palestinians is far worse; more extremist, more oppressive, more violent, more willing to kill innocent people to further their extremist political and religious aims.

As above, Palestinian fanaticism is driven by constant Israeli oppression. Give the Palestinians an option and, as history of South Africa & Northern Ireland has proven, the terrorists will be marginalised.

You are, I am sure, aware of the mass murder of gay men and women within Hamas controlled areas. Your comments on that topic were evasive to say the least. .

Evasive? I clearly agreed that Hamas’ treatment of Homosexuals would be worlds apart from that in Israel? But that isn’t the point and you know it. Israel treats Palestinians of any denomination (and anyone that they can’t tolerate) the same way Hamas may treat a homosexual, but we should somehow see Israel as better?

On the issue of the exclusion of gay people from the memorial in Dachau, well, this thread is about Auschwitz. Sol28 brought the thread back on topic after you tried to bring it off topic in order to point out that a Jewish group had objected to the inclusion of gay people in the memorial in a different country.

And Auschwitz and Dachau are worlds apart? Your second sentence and bluebands following post were markedly reflecting on how such abuses of human rights should never have happened again, yet still did and still do to this day. Ironically being carried out by the one group that suffered the most numerically.

Do you think a Catholic or Protestant or Islamic group would not have made the same objection?

Well they didn’t object. So no. Just the Jews had a problem with it. Why would an Islamic group be consulted?? You might as well consult a Neo Nazi to ensure everyone has a shout. The fact is one member of the groups that suffered together weren’t able to recognise the sad irony of their refusal to permit a simple pink triangle be mounted on the same plaque as their own.

I question your historical knowledge because of your extreme bias and attempt to incorrectly present the current conflict in Israel as a "good guys V Bad guys" conflict. The reality is there are no good guys in any position of power on either side.

Israel have the power to instigate peace yet refuse to do so. They retain the status quo as it ensures the Palestinians do not get above their intended station.

My knowledge is based on having been through Israel and Palestine and witnessing the daily harassment that comes from one side. If ten armoured cars rolled through your neighbourhood twice a day, swerved to intimidate your children, damaged your property without reproach and stopped you from proceeding to work/school/shopping, would you not feel aggrieved? Now imagine 60 years of it.

Israeli check points are revolving doors for Jewish people but for others it’s a daily lottery. Utilities are routinely cut off. Policing is a one sided discussion.

Israeli forces routinely use Palestinian children as human shields to prevent stones being thrown at tanks.

Palestinian homes are demolished on a whim, when they attempt to rebuild them elsewhere nearby, Israeli soldiers wait until the work is done to repeat the exercise.

Even recently they cut off tax revenue to Palestine for the “terrorists” attempt to join the ICC and legitimately and rightly ensure their struggle against Israel is a just method and not following the terrorist line so many portray them as. How did the US respond? They also threatened to withdraw funding as they back Israel’s refusal to consider separation of states.

I fear and loath extremism of all shades. In that context I'd take Israel over any of the likely alternatives.

Bewildering statement - you loath extremism but accept Israel – What is it but an extremist religious state with a super power backing it?

Bullbars, trying to understand your argument. Does this come close? The Holocaust only came at a very late stage. The early stages were mainly of discriminatory laws. Current Israeli laws are similar, so, and is this your point? "just you wait and see this will finish up as an Israeli counter Holocaust?".

Yes, the mass murders were at the very late stages made possible by the early stage laws. Israeli laws are very similar but no I don’t think Israel are heading down the route of building incinerators or mass graves. I have no doubt a few militant right wingers would gladly see the Palestinians be erased completely but you get lunatics like that in every society and they are thankfully a minority.

I note in your answer to Purple that you recognise that Israel is "civilised" and I think given the barbaric nature of the forces ranged against them that explains a lot of what they are doing.

Civilised in so far as they are a very modern society with heavy western ties and are a strong competent economic power. Forces raged against them? More like a mouse farting on a door.

And another thing, of course all Palestinians are not terrorists and not all 30s' Germans were genocidaires but the fact is that Hamas, like the Nazis before them, got into power by popular will.

Nazi's initial intention was the destruction of Communism and this also coincided with the dire German economy of the 1920's. It was a bit like the modern day lefties promising all sorts to right the wrongs of the failures of the previous & current government, but it would be all over for sure if the communists got in. The death of Gustave Streseman was allowed Nazis to gain a foothold. Communists leaders were made up mainly of Jews so this made it easier to extend the routing of Communists to Jews.

You didn't give your views on the population shifts in Palestine from the 1860's to the 1920's. That's crucial to the whole debate as a very large population of the Arab population moved into the area during that period to work for the new Jewish population. In other words their claim to the region dates back no further than many Jews.

Nor did you include the rulings of the Ottoman empire prior to that period and the Jewish abuse of the Fellahin people that lived there before the Jews that were arriving from Russia, taking advantage of peasant farmers to ensure Jews flourished in the area and became valuable land owners.

Where do you stop with such an argument? The salient fact is Palestinians owned land post WW2 Palestine, and the Jews simply took it to form their own religious based state. To state they had claim to this is a farce, does that mean I could reclaim your home based on my “people” originally working the lands there? Of course not.

Palestinian land owners today are faced with the threat of being uprooted for no legitimate reason and dumped elsewhere on a whim.

It built up over 3 years. That's hardly a short period. It was flagged by the UN on the ground but was covered up by the UN head of Peace Keeping, a man who later became general secretary of the UN. He should have been in prison.

The conflict itself was made up of many wars that started in the very early nineties and ran until after the millennium. When I refer to the short escalation time I refer to the short period it took for wars of “independence” to deteriorate into outright genocide.

Agreed the UN had a lot to answer for after that shambles. The Dutch army were abandoned in a no win situation at Srebrenica for example.

Nonsense. The only reason we aren't interested is racism and a lack of self interest.

Possibly. I was merely highlighting the fact that this type of bloodshed has happened elsewhere since then and goes relatively unnoticed despite the “it will never happen again” wishes after every other conflict.

By the way, are you aware of the "African World War" and the nearly 5.5 million people who died in it?

Among others that go on there, yes. Point?
Africa is and was a basket case of tit-for-tat wars of retribution stemming from tribal rivalries in some cases.

or are you only interested in a relatively minor conflict in the Middle East? If so why? Is it because one of the protagonists is a Jewish state?

Again it’s the “are you sure you aren't just an anti-Semite” line?

I'm interested when the Jewish people want us to never forget the wrongs that they endured.

I'm interested when the Jewish people condone the same atrocities being committed by their leaders in their name without a problem.

I'm interested when the Jewish people try to monopolise the suffering that went on during the second world war and refuse to acknowledge a group that suffered the same fate as they did and worse.

I’m interested when the Jewish state sides with the likes of the South African Apartheid government and can’t determine right from wrong.

I’m interested when the Jewish people claim they are returning to their homeland but are merely participating in a land grab.

 

[Purple]

We fundamentally disagree on your view that what Israel is doing is on par with what the Nazis did in Germany in the 1930's and 40's so there's little point in discussing that further but your failure to assign any culpability to the Palestinians or their leadership is the same as blaming the British government for Enniskillen or Omagh or Warrington. By the way, Hamas will automatically kill any LGBT people whey come across. Throwing them off a high building is a particular favourite. There are a million Palestinians who are citizens of Israel. As far as I am aware it is not the policy of the Israeli government to murder them all.

Among others that go on there, yes. Point?
Africa is and was a basket case of tit-for-tat wars of retribution stemming from tribal rivalries in some cases.

I do find the above comment interesting in that the same thing can be said about the Middle East or indeed Northern Ireland. The North is a classic tribal conflict. There is no difference between the ethnic and tribal conflicts in Africa and the ethnic and tribal conflicts in the Middle east. We call them "tribal" when the protagonists are black. That's why I am of the view that it's racist.
If you support the Palestinians in the Middle east then you must support the Unionists in Northern Ireland as their respective claims to their lands are the same. Personally I detest nationalism in all its forms and would like to see a world without religion where people lived in secular republics or federations but that's as far away as it was when John Lennon was singing about it.

 

[bullbars]

We fundamentally disagree on your view that what Israel is doing is on par with what the Nazis did in Germany in the 1930's and 40's so there's little point in discussing that further .

If you can’t see the similarities in the subjective and one sided laws designed to harass and impede one section of the populace only then you are being deliberately blinkered and obtuse.

but your failure to assign any culpability to the Palestinians or their leadership is the same as blaming the British government for Enniskillen or Omagh or Warrington.

The problem with terrorism is the old “One mans’ freedom fighter …” saying. The British government had the chance to quell republicanism and avoid most of the violence the North witnessed but instead, the continued to support a racist, bigoted Unionist government installed only through constant germandering and persecution of the electorate. It started out as a struggle for a righteous struggle for Civil Rights but the Unionists couldn’t abide having to share power. Thatcher, Pasiley and the RUC were the greatest recruiters for IRA extremists. State backed terrorists used to stoke the belligerents when it suited them as well.

By the way, Hamas will automatically kill any LGBT people whey come across. Throwing them off a high building is a particular favourite.

Throwing them off high buildings is a latest ISIS screen grab by you. Hamas, similar to other Arab states, advocate that it is punishable by death but LGBT victims are usually excommunicated and leave the area. You keep on at this as if it somehow rights Israel’s’ wrongs?

There are a million Palestinian citizens of Israel. As far as I am aware it is not the policy of the Israeli government to murder them all.

Dukeofmarmalade tried this approach. Not once have I said this was Israel’s intention. Ridiculous assertion.

I do find the above comment interesting in that the same thing can be said about the Middle East or indeed Northern Ireland. The North is a classic tribal conflict. There is no difference between the ethnic and tribal conflicts in Africa and the ethnic and tribal conflicts in the Middle east. We call them "tribal" when the protagonists are black. That's why I am of the view that it's racist.

The North isn’t a tribal conflict. Anyone growing up in the north has an opinion and an option to side with whomever they wish or none at all.

Tribal African conflicts offer their members no choice in who they fight for and when they fight. To do so would see them isolated, isolation means death. To see the disputes as the same is preposterous.

If you support the Palestinians in the Middle east then you must support the Unionists in Northern Ireland as their respective claims to their lands are the same.

The unionists (if we’re broadbrushing a people into one group), ‘nationalist’s and anyone in between, should not be forced to uproot from wherever they wish to reside as long as they can do so in a civil and law abiding manner.

Personally I detest nationalism in all its forms and would like to see a world without religion where people lived in secular republics or federations but that's as far away as it was when John Lennon was singing about it.

Religion and state should always be two entirely separate entities.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Jayz we now see Duke's second law in operation - the probability of mentioning NI approaches 1.

Bullbars your views on NI are, from my personal knowledge, a grotesque caricature and whilst I was prepared to accept that your travels though the Holy Land made you more informed than me on that score, your take on NI convinces me that you are incapable of making a proportionate assessment on these matters.

Purple has raised a very interesting point. I was vaguely aware that hutus and tutus and kukus, whatever, were beating the bejayzus out of each other but not on such a large scale. So why is it that such disproportionate attention is paid by the "civilised" World to the Israeli/Arab thing and indeed was even more disproportionate to the NI conflict? (did you know that over the 30 years of the NI conflict twice as many people died from RTAs as from the Troubles, I lived thru' the worst of it and was never seriously frightened and believe me I'm a coward at heart)

 

[Purple]

The North isn’t a tribal conflict. Anyone growing up in the north has an opinion and an option to side with whomever they wish or none at all.

Tribal African conflicts offer their members no choice in who they fight for and when they fight. To do so would see them isolated, isolation means death. To see the disputes as the same is preposterous.

you know nothing about African geopolitics and very little about Northern Ireland

 

[bullbars]

Jayz we now see Duke's second law in operation - the probability of mentioning NI approaches 1.

Still havent grasped that Godwins law bit have we.....

Bullbars

your views on NI are, from my personal knowledge, a grotesque caricature and whilst I was prepared to accept that your travels though the Holy Land made you more informed than me on that score, your take on NI convinces me that you are incapable of making a proportionate assessment on these matters.

Your one sided version of the North is well versed long enough here. It's plainly obvious what side of the fence you can only discuss that topic from. Your "proportionate assessment" involves constant childish name calling and bigoted hatred. I did not experience the worst of the Troubles, what I did experience has put me off going back, but I can at least accept that both sides had wronged at varying points.

 

[bullbars]

you know nothing about African geopolitics and very little about Northern Ireland

Your pantomime retorts aside, My career has taken me through these places, I'll take that over your arm chair assessments any day.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Bullbars I spent my formative years in Andytown; I remember having to show my ID to the local IRA at the barricades as they were running the show at the time; the IRA didn't seem a threat and as for the loyalist murder gangs I had utmost confidence that the British security forces would protect me from them. I know Andytown is not awash with dukes but I tell no lie. Does that concur with whatever prejudiced assessment you had made of my tribal affiliations?

As for Godwin's Law I would happily engage in an intellectual debate with you on the topic. What might start off as a thread on EU rules on the bendiness of bananas might at some stage, with apparent connectivity, turn into comparisons with Nazi intolerance.

Now as to this thread, of course Godwin's Law was fulfilled ab initio, but it was not obvious that it would lead to references to gays and NI, Duke's two laws. And these references when they arose, one remarkably quickly, did not lack connectivity. A lack of connectivity is not a conclusion of these profound laws.

 

[Purple]

Your pantomime retorts aside, My career has taken me through these places, I'll take that over your arm chair assessments any day.

Well done but knowledge is not gained through osmosis so simply having been somewhere does not automatically make you an expert on the place. For the record I've been to Africa 5 times, twice to North Africa and 3 times to Central and East Africa. That not withstanding my knowledge on the Great Lakes region of Central Africa is derived from study, not occasional geographic location.

I travelled to Northern Ireland on a weekly basis for years through work (or my career took me there if that sounds better), but I learned far more about it by reading. Though I seldom did so in an armchair, more usually while taking a dump or lying in bed. Again, the location was less important than the study.

 

[bullbars]

Bullbars I spent my formative …..tribal affiliations? .

It’s the myopic inability to see right from wrong when it comes to both sides I have issues with. Too often it took civil disobedience to attain civil rights.

The small amount of time there I spent infinitely answering the question “So, where did you go to school” before I’d find out whether I’d be graced with some cooperation in work. It was nauseating.

Now as to this thread, of course Godwin's Law was fulfilled ab initio, .

A thread on Auschwitz referring to Nazi’s??? Completely unforeseen.

Well done but knowledge is not gained through osmosis so simply having been somewhere does not automatically make you an expert on the place. For the record I've been to Africa 5 times, twice to North Africa and 3 times to Central and East Africa. That notwithstanding my knowledge on the Great Lakes region of Central Africa is derived from study, not occasional geographic location.

I never claimed to be an expert but your early assertion that the Palestinians were merely Muslim terrorists was an indication of your corrupt and guileless knowledge of the region. You accusation of a “one eyed” view was painfully ironic as you finagled an excuse to continue Palestinian persecution on how they treat homosexuals without taking any cognisance of the facts.

I’ve worked there and my experience across the Arabian Peninsula, Afghanistan and Mogadishu/ Somali land is what I’ve based my assessment on as well as my own significant reading ( or study if that sounds better). I’ve dealt with local faction “authorities” as well as international agencies on the ground and witnessed the ramifications.

I travelled to Northern Ireland on a weekly basis for years through work (or my career took me there if that sounds better),

Call it what you want. The relevant point is working and living in these places is not the same as “I’ve been there…on holidays” and you gain a lot more understanding of what goes on and more importantly why.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Bullbars I only recall one civil disobedience campaign, it lasted about a month; my parents reluctantly participated, not to would be at the minimum to have your front door daubed with "soldier lover".

Regrettably the equality agenda was furthered by the campaign of violence rather than any peaceful protest.

NI has had one of the strongest equality enforcement regimes for some time now. It is a very long time, if ever, I suspect, since you were last asked what school you went to. In any case, if you come from these parts you only have to open your mouth to declare what tribe you are from.

 

[Purple]

I never claimed to be an expert but your early assertion that the Palestinians were merely Muslim terrorists was an indication of your corrupt and guileless knowledge of the region. You accusation of a “one eyed” view was painfully ironic as you finagled an excuse to continue Palestinian persecution on how they treat homosexuals without taking any cognisance of the facts.

Show me where I said all Palestinians were terrorists.
Show me where I said their treatment of gay people excused the persecution of Palestinians.
If you can't then withdraw your scurrilous accusations.

Do you accept that there are Palestinian terrorists and can you, without equivocation, condemn any of their actions?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Do you accept that there are Palestinian terrorists and can you, without equivocation, condemn any of their actions?

And while he is at it he might admit that suicide bombings, videoed beheadings and burnings alive are a far worse evil than "discriminatory" laws designed to protect against this anti-human culture which not only surrounds Israel but is in its midst.

 

[bullbars]

Show me where I said all Palestinians were terrorists. ?

Just as you must equate the mass murder of millions of people with the intention of wiping them off the face of the earth with the excessive actions of an extremist government in Israel.

Terming the actions of the Israeli’s as merely “excessive” completely seeks to minimise their true role and intent. It has been a state back land grab since its inception. And it has been carried out by successive Government’s, it’s nothing new to them

There is no comparison between what the Nazis did and the excessive and often criminal response of Israel to Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.

Israel has been engaged in the theft of land and violated human rights as an accompanying act of inhumane barbarousness; yet this is only “Excessive”? Your bearing on this was questionable beforehand, now its plainly uninformed.

Palestinians refuse to accept the autocratic states actions yet you brand them as fundamental terrorists.

Should the indigenous South Africans have been happy with their lot and kept quiet?
Should the Native Americans have stood aside and be merrily wiped out?
Should the Irish people have accepted British rule and just been happy being controlled from London?
Should the Chinese have just opened the door for the Japanese in 1937?
Would you recommend these groups to ask nicely next time?

Your labelling of Palestinans simply as Islamic highlights your own evident one-dimensional view – do the Palestinian Christians simply get landed in to the Islamic terrorist group?

Show me where I said their treatment of gay people excused the persecution of Palestinians.

What are your views on the treatment of homosexuals in Hamas controlled areas? How do you think it equates with the treatment of homosexuals in Israel?.

You are, I am sure, aware of the mass murder of gay men and women within Hamas controlled areas.

What was this presented for only in an abstract attempt to justify Israel retaining sole power and denigrate the possible outcomes of Palestinian control.

Do you accept that there are Palestinian terrorists and can you, without equivocation, condemn any of their actions?

Hamas have been excessive in their methods at times…that’s an acceptable description of terrorism, right?
They have undoubtably been guilty of utilising human shields when it suits them and hijacked vital civilian supply tunnels for weapons smuggling jeopardising their humanitarian intent and essential value. I would condemn some but not all of their actions. Israel has a habit of trying to present it situation as the "underdog" fighting for survival, yet the numbers of Palestinians killed in the last circa 25 years show Israel are top of the charts with a kill ratio of 6 to 1.

Why only bring up only Palestinian terrorists though? There were Jewish terrorist groups; at times lead by two prominent Israeli’s who went on to serve as Prime Ministers.

And while he is at it he might admit that suicide bombings, videoed beheadings and burnings alive are a far worse evil than "discriminatory" laws designed to protect against this anti-human culture which not only surrounds Israel but is in its midst.

Your retorts get more pathetic and your perception of the dispute there is unsurprisingly perverse.

Burnings Alive? – Disconcertingly stupid comment. Confusing recent ISIS barbarity with Palestinians and assuming they are somehow one and the same is ridiculously supercilious. But as you’ve raised the issue of burning someone alive, the last person burnt alive in the region was in fact a Palestinian Muslim, beaten and set alight while still alive by 6 Jews. Tied to this act was the speech advocating genocide by current Israeli government member Ayelet Shaked which was given the day before that atrocity. Not surprisingly there was a media blackout with regard to that case in jewish media and surprise surprise, their family homes weren't bulldozed and the families incarcerated.

With regard to Suicide bombings – Are they more evil than Israeli bombing from distance, especially those that target known residential areas?
Are the video recorded acts of terror worse than those carried out by Israel because they don’t broadcast on state controlled media?
If you were herded from your home tomorrow without reason, would you put up a fight or go quietly along?

“Anti-human culture” Again your highlights your repulsive contempt and lack of understanding. The parallel, and indeed inspiration for, the laws introduced against the Jews in Nazi Germany in the pre-war years and those used against the Palestinian people is well documented and well acknowledged. It is state backed terror based on religious intolerance, but you’ve plainly no problems with that as evidenced.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Bullbars the suicide bombings above all convince me that I would never have anything in common with that culture or any sympathy for it. It's not that they are evil, it's not that, it's just beyond my comprehension.

It's a culture which produces young men and women to do that, that glorifies and rewards their families. Unfortunately, whilst of course those who actually do suicide bomb are in a minority, this is Palestinian culture - anti human. And this really is quite unique (the notorious kamikaze pilots excepted) - and please do not argue that it is because of the uniqueness of Israeli oppression (9/11 had nothing to do with Israel). The IRA were never, ever going to cultivate suicide bombers. I never supported the IRA but I do not feel culturally completely alienated from them.