Our "World Class" education system

P

Purple

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According to the OECD Ireland is below average for literacy and numeracy.
We heard from Intel a year of so back that our graduates were not fit for purpose. Our tradespeople are well below the standards of their mainland European counterparts. We rank amongst the worst in the OECD for foreign language fluency.
It's one thing pulling on the green jersey and telling outsiders that we have a world-class education system and a highly educated workforce but it seems that we believe our own propaganda when the reality is that our educational outcomes, right across the board, are well below what they need to be. Until we accept reality we cannot change it. What should we do?
 
Stop focusing on third level education for a start. Re introduce fees and put the money into primary and secondary level. Not everyone has to go to university and not having a degree is not something to be ashamed of. Employers need to cop on as well. One of my pet hates is seeing jobs that look for candidates with degrees when they are simply not needed. Would also lead to the cutting of a lot of useless courses that are there for the universities benefit rather than industry or students.
While we don't have to copy everything German, there are parts of their apprenticeship programmes that are worth looking at.
IT skills should be taught in secondary level as a mainstream subject. Everyone should be able to use the basic office tools and be comfortable around computers. Basic coding could also be taught.
Foreign languages should be prioritised. We have so many foreign students here learning English. Why not see if we can use them in some way.
Companies should be encouraged to have greater collaboration with third level. If a company sees skill shortages, they should work with a university to design a programme that will give people these skills.
PHD research should be properly funded with graduates encouraged to stay in the country.
Class sizes in primary should be cut dramatically.

Am sure there are plenty of other things.
 
Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.
 
Seagull said:
Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.
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Is that true for the Irish system ? In 'my' experience (younger child in 5th class, older in 1st year), it is not.
 
You can blame teaching of religion (not even widespread anymore), under funding (amongst the highest paid teachers in the OECD!) etc etc.

The simple answer is bad teachers who are protected by the system/Unions and are allowed clock up their time at the expense of children's education until they can draw down the golden pension.

What % of teachers are bad and simply not up to it? What % of teachers are just drifting, recycling the same notes each year? What % of teachers are not suitable for the job and despite being intelligent etc, but simply cannot teach/communicate?
I don't know the exact answers to that, but in the schools I attended it was pretty high
 
Excellent. Problem solved Purple. That was easy. Next we should solve the problems in the health service. I am going out on a limb here but I think it is all the doctors fault.
 
Seagull said:
Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.
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That, my friend, is an utter fiction.

BTW the problem is much wider than the teachers. For example I was staggered to learn recently that the Leaving Cert Economics syllabus was last updated in 1969!
 
Delboy said:
What % of teachers are bad and simply not up to it? What % of teachers are just drifting, recycling the same notes each year? What % of teachers are not suitable for the job and despite being intelligent etc, but simply cannot teach/communicate?
I don't know the exact answers to that, but in the schools I attended it was pretty high
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What % of parents refuse to allow the teacher/school to discipline their children, thereby making their jobs almost impossible to do
 
Sunny said:
Excellent. Problem solved Purple. That was easy. Next we should solve the problems in the health service. I am going out on a limb here but I think it is all the doctors fault.
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Yes, concentrate on a part of the problem and the rest of it will just go away. :rolleyes:

I do think the standard of teaching isn't what it should be but I don't know what the answer to that problem is. What frustrates me is that the teachers are the experts and whenever this topic is discussed they get very defensive. The are the ones who should be coming forward with the answers. I think a large part of the reason for that is that their professional body (which should push for high standards) is much weaker than their unions (which will try to keep standards as low as possible).
Parents are a major part of the problem, probably the largest part. The curriculums for the various subjects as well as teaching methods also seem to be very out of date.

I do agree that early education id the key; the dye is cast for most kids by the time they are 7 or 8. There's very little chance of them catching up later if they fall behind by that age.

We have a major problem. Those in the middle of our education system acknowledging that the problem exists is the first step.
 
delgirl said:
Not so in Irish Primary Schools according to the OECD Education at a Glance Report published in 2012.
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That's a very selective article and headline. It's undisputed that there are more religion classes than science classes in primary schools, however that's because 1) science isn't a core subject at primary level; 2) most primary schools have little or no science facilities; 3) whatever little science is taught is at higher class levels, 5th & 6th classes, and certainly not to the younger kids especially those at 1st Communion stage, who will be receiving dedicated religion classes in school in preparation for the sacrament.

People are entitled to question the appropriateness or otherwise of religious education in the classroom but it's patent nonsense to suggest that 6-8 year olds are being denied education in chemistry, physics and biology as a result of it.
 
T McGibney said:
People are entitled to question the appropriateness or otherwise of religious education in the classroom but it's patent nonsense to suggest that 6-8 year olds are being denied education in chemistry, physics and biology as a result of it.
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And as for the school that is prioritising One Direction over religion ;) ?
 
T McGibney said:
That's a very selective article and headline. It's undisputed that there are more religion classes than science classes in primary schools, however that's because 1) science isn't a core subject at primary level; 2) most primary schools have little or no science facilities; 3) whatever little science is taught is at higher class levels, 5th & 6th classes, and certainly not to the younger kids especially those at 1st Communion stage, who will be receiving dedicated religion classes in school in preparation for the sacrament.

People are entitled to question the appropriateness or otherwise of religious education in the classroom but it's patent nonsense to suggest that 6-8 year olds are being denied education in chemistry, physics and biology as a result of it.
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that 8 year olds should know Newton's 3 laws of motion or the difference between organic and inorganic chemistry but nature studies and experiments showing basic stuff about how the world around us works can give kids an interest in science that they can carry with them for the rest of their lives.
It's better than hearing about Sampson opening a can of whoop-ass on the Philistines and killing 30 of them with the jawbone of an ass or God killing Lots wife simply for looking over her shoulder (as he simultaneously killed every man woman and child in the city of Sodom for not being righteous enough)... or do they leave those bits out in primary school nowadays?
 
From my nephews and nieces in primary school I discovered that 30 minutes a day is spend studying religion. Thats 2.5 hours a week. Its more than PE.
Also, in communion class and confirmation class that increases as preparation is required.

Also, I dont see any reason why a foreign language like German, French or Spanish isnt taught to kids in primary schools. It would be more worthwhile to them than Irish. That may sound like treason to some but I certainly would prefer my kids to learn a foreign language rather Irish. Obviously that would require retraining for teachers which would mean union issues.
Learning a foreign language as 12/13 when they enter secondary school is too late and puts them at a disadvantage to students in other countries.

Either way, our education system is far from world class.
 
The_Banker said:
From my nephews and nieces in primary school I discovered that 30 minutes a day is spend studying religion. Thats 2.5 hours a week. Its more than PE.
Also, in communion class and confirmation class that increases as preparation is required.

Also, I dont see any reason why a foreign language like German, French or Spanish isnt taught to kids in primary schools. It would be more worthwhile to them than Irish. That may sound like treason to some but I certainly would prefer my kids to learn a foreign language rather Irish. Obviously that would require retraining for teachers which would mean union issues.
Learning a foreign language as 12/13 when they enter secondary school is too late and puts them at a disadvantage to students in other countries.

Either way, our education system is far from world class.
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We all learned Irish for 10+ years and how many of us can speak it now! So I don't see why throwing another language into the mix without changing the system would lead to an outcome any different.
 
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